<p>I know, I know. Not again...</p>
<p>This isn't something I thought up, but it's a statement made by a guy in my Psych class. </p>
<p>When he said it, I thought about the thread I had on here a few days ago and how the majority of people weren't very, um, helpful.</p>
<p>Do you think this statement is true, though? Why or why not?</p>
<p>It's how they're portrayed, if it's true or not, I'll leave that to the swarm of feminists I see running over that hill for your neck.</p>
<p>define concerned:</p>
<p>here is the problem: a lot of guys are "concerned" in manners that automatically assume that women can't take care of themselves and that they (men) can.<br>
It is very touching when guy-friends are actually concerned about me. It is very obnoxious when they assume I can't handle something that I well can.</p>
<p>It all depends on their delivery. </p>
<p>Nobody likes to feel like they're being treated like a child or attacked, so the very same concern or opinion can get completely different responses based on how you express it.</p>
<p>oh I should have known you hadn't learned your lesson with the last thread.</p>
<p>Again, I must ask, is it necessary for certain people to be literate?</p>
<p>Depends on what your concerns are, and how you express them. </p>
<p>...I will now go back to my corner and resume the beating of my head against a wall.</p>
<p>I agree about the delivery, but let's frame this a different way:</p>
<p>When women are upset about something...do they always say "okay, I am upset, I would like to sit down and discuss my feelings with you in a calm and cogent manner"?</p>
<p>Are women prone to crying? Do they scream and fuss? Do they get loud? Do they pitch fits?</p>
<p>The point the guy was trying to make is that even though guys don't typically don't that, they are still labeled as whiny or just woman-haters. But women's concerns about men are addressed and considered regardless of their delivery or the validity of their concerns. </p>
<p>And don't beat your head against the wall, Blahdeblah. It's not that serious.</p>
<p>This discussion will get nowhere. Females will never fully appreciate their own shortcomings and we will never appreciate ours either. Is it really worth it to go on and on ad nauseam about this type of thing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are women prone to crying? Do they scream and fuss? Do they get loud? Do they pitch fits?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Umm...no? Do you seriously think all women do this when they have a concern about someting? Are you sure you have not confused "women" with "toddlers"? If a woman throws a hissy fit about something minor, 95% of people will say, oh god what a drama queen, and ignore her. The other 5% are probably fellow drama queens.</p>
<p>If someone is genuinely upset about something, then they are probably not going to be calm and rational about it...that's just the nature of being upset.</p>
<p>If you complain about something stupid and insignificant, you are a whiner regardless of sex. If you complain about it with much gusto, you are a drama queen (or king, if applicable).</p>
<p>In my experience with several female friends they tend to be more emotional when it comes to obstacles and setbacks compared to my male friends. If a guy doesn't make the basketball team, he most definetely is going to be sad about it, but he usually won't go home and cry and sit in his bed for two days like the girl who didn't get into her sorority she wanted (true story).</p>
<p>This is an observation from my personal life, but it seems highly probably that this trend could be extrapolated out to the rest of the female gender.</p>
<p>I think it's an informal logical fallacy (bifurcation)</p>
<p>A lot of women are very emotional, true. A lot of women are stubborn and would rather blow off steam instead of actually talking it out, sure. A lot of women hold grudges and are passive aggressive, true. </p>
<p>Out of those things, I'm only guilty of one of them (blowing off steam). Once I say it and get it out in the open, I'm usually over it right then and there. I'd rather talk out my frustration instead of discussing the reason behind it. Mostly because I know why I'm frustrated and whether I'm over-reacting or not. </p>
<p>The only way I'll really get irritated with a guy and hold it against him is if he thinks I'm inferior just because I'm female or disregards my feelings due to being "emotional" or "PMSing" when he's really doing something wrong or hurtful. </p>
<p>I know that I'm not as physically strong as many/most guys, but that's pretty much the only thing I'm not as strong as they are in.</p>
<p>The whole problem with the statement is: "Men who express concerns about women." Whenever someone expresses a concern about a whole group of people (men, women, blacks, Jews, Asians, liberals, conservatives, etc.) he or she is stereotyping. What do you mean, "concerns about women"? I can understand "concerns about a woman." A man is entitled to his concerns about a specific woman in his life. Same goes for a woman b1tching about a man. But criticizing one whole sex is misogynistic--you're saying that all women share a characteristic that is a cause of concern. Women are all different and stereotypes mean nothing. The stereotyping of women as such-and-such is what makes the "concerned" men misogynistic. You can't label women fussy, or b1tchy, or demanding, or fickle...there are too many women who aren't like that, and there are plenty of men who are like that.
For what it's worth, men get a bad rap. I know too many men who abhor couch potato-ing and beer-swilling and who are sensitive/caring...I won't believe the stereotypes.</p>
<p>^ exactly...</p>
<p>
[quote]
The whole problem with the statement is: "Men who express concerns about women." Whenever someone expresses a concern about a whole group of people (men, women, blacks, Jews, Asians, liberals, conservatives, etc.) he or she is stereotyping. What do you mean, "concerns about women"? I can understand "concerns about a woman." A man is entitled to his concerns about a specific woman in his life. Same goes for a woman b1tching about a man. But criticizing one whole sex is misogynistic--you're saying that all women share a characteristic that is a cause of concern. Women are all different and stereotypes mean nothing. The stereotyping of women as such-and-such is what makes the "concerned" men misogynistic. You can't label women fussy, or b1tchy, or demanding, or fickle...there are too many women who aren't like that, and there are plenty of men who are like that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This might sound good in theory, but it's a bit dishonest intellectually. Stereotyping is normal, natural. Everyone does it. It doesn't make us defective and being a misogynist is a defective personality trait.</p>
<p>We all have complaints about groups of people, and it serves no purpose in trying to act like everyone is 100% different. That just isn't true. We all have similarities.</p>
<p>And while we're at it, you just made my point. Are women who express concerns about men misandrists?</p>
<p>And I'm not characterizing all women as being fussy or whatever, I simply made a point. A point that pertains to many women whether you believe it or not, even if it doesn't exactly pertain to you.</p>
<p>And our society isn't perfectly balanced and fair and equal (unfortunately). I only asked was what the guy said true of any women, and I'm sorry to say it is true of you. Is it true of all women? No. But a lot? I believe so. It's fine to have a differing opinion, but let's not pass judgments because of some reflexive habit you have. All men who generalize and stereotype aren't misogynists. Neither are women who do the same. By generalizing, these people aren't saying they expect to be entirely correct...they just want to get as close as possible.</p>
<p>Jason has a very valid point. We are so consumed these days about the sinister nature of stereotyping we forget it still allows us to be predict behavior within groups to a slight degree.</p>
<p>People are different, and this is a result of genetic variation which allows for different avenues of survival. However, underlying those differences are many similarities which percipitate out in our politically correct climate as "ignorant" stereotypes.</p>
<p>Any logical person realizes that after he meets 30 different people of a certain group and they all act in a similar manner despite different backgrounds there is either a cultural/genetic disposition within their environment that facilitates this behavior. Not to say that after meeting these people he didn't encounter some (although not the majority) that didn't fit the mold. He still can reasonably predict that he has a better chance of meeting a person with the characteristics of the majority than those of the minority in his next encounter with someone from the group.</p>
<p>This political correctness stuff has almost become dogmatic.</p>
<p>I've had people express concern about me in ways that I find comforting, charming, and sweet. Many of these people have been men. When a man insists on driving me home, I think that it's wonderful that he cares about me enough to not want me to be mugged. Likewise, I simply adore my female friends who drive me home or let me stay on their couches. </p>
<p>I've also had people express "concern" in the most patronising manner, both men and women. I've had "concern" about my lack of aptitude for engineering (by a bunch of men who, to this day, lack a degree in that subject - they all dropped out, I finished); "concern" about the fact that I'll get pizza by myself at 8 pm in a busy, crowded area instead of getting a male escort to walk two blocks with me; or general "concern" about my ability to handle life by people who would be dead if they lived through half of what I've lived through. </p>
<p>I dislike the idea that all women are incredibly emotional about everything that happens to them. First off, we express ourselves differently. Women really tend to vent and not want solutions, while men see this as women being incapable of dealing with the situation and needing advice. Women are also sensible enough to not keep their emotions in - we at least admit when we are upset.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I dislike the idea that all women are incredibly emotional about everything that happens to them. First off, we express ourselves differently. Women really tend to vent and not want solutions, while men see this as women being incapable of dealing with the situation and needing advice. Women are also sensible enough to not keep their emotions in - we at least admit when we are upset.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's understandable. Men and women do express themselves differently. No dispute from my end.</p>
<p>Where I think the difference lies is in how our differences are perceived. Notice how most people say women are 'emotional' -- most people, most men (except the snippy, insulting ones) don't call women whiny, whimpering, childlike, crybabies who need to grow up and stop acting like a little girl. We simply respect their different way of communicating their feelings.</p>
<p>Men, however, don't get this same regard for their way of communicating. Men tend to be more demonstrative, but beyond that, I think people have a hard time accepting when men express themselves in the stereotypical "girl" manner. If we complain about anything, we're whining. We're b*tching. We need to suck it up...be a man. If our complaints are centered around women, we're misogynists. We hate women. We just want to tear strips off of women. It seems as though we not only have to express ourselves in an easily palatable fashion, but we have to justify our concerns as well. Do we try to try to make an appeal towards logic when we see an woman crying...or do we at least try to calm her down before sorting out her problem?</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Women are also sensible enough to not keep their emotions in - we at least admit when we are upset.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Honey, that doesn't come from being sensible. That comes from being licensed to be as forthcoming as you want about your feelings --- whatever they are. As most guys know, when you've heard "suck it up, be a man" a couple of times, you start to hold back. Most people don't question a woman's womanhood if she is or isn't forthcoming about her emotions. Can the same be said for guys? Unfortunately not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If we complain about anything, we're whining. We're b*tching. We need to suck it up...be a man.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Replace "be a man" with "think about the starving children in Africa and how insignificant their problems are compared to yours", and you have most people's reactions to anything remotely negative that I might ever say. Maybe the people that others know treat them differently, but I do not find that I am allowed to complain about everything (or anything really) just because I'm female - no matter how large, small, justified, etc. the complaint is. The best I might get is a fellow female joining in with me, if she happens to agree with me. I think it's just that no one really likes to hear about other people's problems all that much.</p>
<p>I do agree that the whole "be manly" preoccupation that society has is a bit ridiculous. It's ok for a girl to be a tomboy, "one of the guys", and so on, but it's not ok for the opposite to happen. I've really never understood why this is. The only things I can think of is that it's everyone being unconsciously homophobic (no one wants to be girly because it is associated with being stereotypically gay), or it's everyone being unconsciously misogynistic (no one wants to be girly because it is associated with being...well, a girl, and males are the 'better' of the two sexes).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Replace "be a man" with "think about the starving children in Africa and how insignificant their problems are compared to yours", and you have most people's reactions to anything remotely negative that I might ever say. Maybe the people that others know treat them differently, but I do not find that I am allowed to complain about everything (or anything really) just because I'm female - no matter how large, small, justified, etc. the complaint is. The best I might get is a fellow female joining in with me, if she happens to agree with me. I think it's just that no one really likes to hear about other people's problems all that much.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is where generalities and stereotypes take their place. What you mentioned doesn't get touted nearly as much as "be a man" does nor does it have as long a legacy as "think of the starving children" and that isn't typically a remark said to girls. Guys get that too. Why is it so hard for you to admit that guys might have cornered the market on <em>this</em> complaint?</p>
<p>These excuses do nothing but marginalize the impact "be a man, suck it up" might have on boys or concerns that men might have about women. And to be honest, I think you're grasping at straws.</p>