<p>I certainly would like to hear from justinmeche. Part of my difficulty with this is my inability to understand what he doesn't understand, if you know what I mean. He does OK on the problem sets and lousy on the tests. Made an "A" in Linear Algebra at a state school. Why is it so much more difficult, if you're basically talking about the same course? Do you think he could succeed at a lower-tier school? Thanks, and good luck!</p>
<p>jonri,</p>
<p>I do have a twin but he is class of 2005 at Cornell.</p>
<p>It is definitely true that a person who struggles at a MIT or Cornell can do well somewhere else, but it depends on the reasons. I have the skills to do engineering but the coursework had to be presented in paritcular manner in order for me to understand it. I was able to do well in mechanical engineering, but if I stayed with computer science I would still have ended up being a failure because my mind isn't wired correctly for CS, no matter what school it is.</p>
<p>You wrote, "The long and short of it is, he's being asked to leave." </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>"He sailed through our small rural high school, self-studied, and made great scores on SAT Is and IIs, but can't conquer the math he's been handed."</p>
<p>"What would you suggest"</p>
<p>Based on the first part of what you said, you need to figure out a plan B. There are hundreds of other colleges in the United States, if that still looks like the best thing to do with his time, but if the first one won't keep him, he has to find another. </p>
<p>Based on the second part of what you said, he needs to CHECK just how well he really knows math. What kind of score did he get on the SAT II Math IIC, or didn't he take that SAT II test? The ALEKS online course
covers the math that trips up most college students, really (that is, it covers precalculus math) and if he can't do a forty-eight-hour free trial on that program and get through most of the assessments in the precalculus course he indeed would have little chance of surviving a really tough technical school. There is also a whole series of online assessments you can Google up with the phrase "are you ready for calculus?" that demonstrate that many people who have advanced to a calculus course in high school may not really remember the material. (If he tests his knowledge of essential PREcalculus mathematics, what happens? Does he ace it comfortably, or is he puzzled about how to tackle a problem?) </p>
<p>I think several of us would have much more to say in much better detail if only you hadn't been so intentionally vague in your posts here. I guess you've been reading the threads here recently about online privacy :) and you are trying to protect your son's privacy, which is commendable. But you will have to talk to someone you can trust with many more details, I think, if you are to get more focused advice.</p>
<p>Yalebound: chill. This is the Parent's Forum.</p>
<p>AnonTx; Your S is at the proverbial cross in the road. Has he hit the glass ceiling in his Math talent? Is it time for him to parachute to PoliSci? (Big smile, The Dad). My H talks about his 'parachute' moment. My S, big Math talent, visited a couple of reknowned engineering programs and didn't recognize himself amongst the student body. (Nor did he remind me of the engineers I know). Funnily, he's fallen for Economics, or Math with Politics and History thrown on top. In other words, no to engineering does not mean no to life.</p>
<p>If he is an undiagnosed LD learner--can he keep up?</p>
<p>Other questions regarding his first semester failures. Did he go to all his classes? What were the test scores through the semester? Was he failing from the beginning and unable to access resources? How was his time management? Did he keep a diary? Hopefully, he can share these details. It is important for him to understand the reasons he fell behind so quickly.</p>
<p>Big parent hug to you, oh safety net provider.....</p>
<p>AnonTXmom,</p>
<p>At Cornell I did well on my calculus problems sets because the problems were generally easy and I had lots of time to do them. But the exams were more difficult and had a time limit. And without the chance to ask detailed questions I would always get no better than a C+. But physics (mechanics) was bad all around. I never had a strong grasp of it and I could never do a problem set without help. When it came to physics I didn't understand the fundamentals behind the problem. Setting up a free body diagram and using the correct formulas was not clear at all. Statics at Cornell was even more confusing. I failed every test and didn't understand any of the homework. One of the first classes I took at YSU was statics. The different textbook opened up the world of engineering for me. I began to see why my intuition for approaching the problems was flawed and from that point on I did very well with courses like statics, dynamics, mechanics of materials, and stress analysis. It was really weird to go from complete cluelessness to a state of concrete understanding.</p>
<p>It it possible that the guy could succeed at a lower-tier school but it all depends on the school, the professor, and the student. But like I said already, it's all about the FUNDAMENTALS and having professors that have the time to teach them. It is easy to do a problem set by following examples in the book but the key is to be able to do them without looking at a book or notes.</p>
<p>Tokenadult--sorry about the necessary vagaries. Math IIC-760, Physics-800
SAT I Math 710, but what I'm saying is that I think because of his self-study for these tests, he may not have had the necessary depth in these subjects. However they're presenting and/or testing, he's not getting it.</p>
<p>As a pedi audiologist who works with many LD kids and teens, just a few comments. I would not see a regular old doctor for hearing unless you need the referral. Contrary to popular opinion, you can pass a screening test, which is the only test that can be given in the doctor's office, and still have a hearing loss sufficient to interfere with learning in a classroom setting. Most screening tests hearing at 25 because they do not have a soundbooth but we speak at 50dB so 25 is a 50% loss of hearing for conversational level speech. Add to that distance from your ear to the teacher, and interfering competing noise inbetween and you do not have adequate hearing. Also, perfect hearing does not equal perfect auditory processing and an audiologist should definitely do that testing. Another comment that is personal but from experience working with hearing loss and LD and with schools. Any child with a diagnosed disability that prevents equal access to the curriculum without accomodations/modifications is indeed entitled to accomodations via the federally mandated 504 law. It is commonly referred to as a 504 plan and there are specific diagnoses identified such as hearing loss and ADD. However, in practice, whether or not the colleges provide accomodations optimally depends significantly on their POV, prior experience, and, typically, the parent/student ability to stand up for those accomodations. It is required that the student provide the diagnostic testing that supports the request for accomodations. If I were interested in assessing a child for a learning disability given the data presented here, I would check, as mentioned the peripheral hearing and vision first, then consider a neurospych evaluation. Neuropsychologists are uniquely trained to assess learning strenghs/weaknesses in many modalities and can also assess for ADD. I have found that for older students, the right neurospychologist can give surprising information regarding strengths, weaknesses, learning styles accompanied by personal/classroom recommendations. My youngest son was evaluated and we learned some things about how he works that changed how we perceived him......you can find neurospcyhologists at pedi hospitals (for this, the are also at adult hospitals) and in private practice. I should also mention that some will also evaluate emotional status if desired.</p>
<p>All of that said, I am worried that this is a function of teaching style, atmosphere, competition, and big transition from home. I am a strong believer that the teacher and the classroom style are the greatest contributors to grades, presuming no significant learning problems. I have a teen with ADHD and through the years we have had teachers who have loved him and hated him. If the class is tightly wound, the teacher does not appreciate him and he has more difficulty keeping organized and pacing. If the teacher believes in interactive learning, he is the star and she assigns him to mentor other students.......My own personal experience in college is that I was overwhelmed by the teachers in my Chemistry department, all Chinese TAs in large classes. I could not understand them in class, or after when I went for help. I borrowed others notes but they were not enough and I was mortified to keep asking the TAs to repeat what they had said. I gave up Chemistry largely because of that and the very competitive atmosphere in the class. Today I would make it clear that I was not understanding the teacher's accent and I would make a pest of myself until I understood everything but most students are not feeling comfortable with that. I am wondering, did anyone try to intervene with him before they thought about asking him to leave? It also seems that just having the realization that you are not doing as well as you had hoped could become a self-fulfilling prophecy when you don't have a lot of support to turn to.</p>
<p>Rambling thought, I know.</p>
<p>One more personal comment. My son took Algebra II at a community college (he placed out of it on their test but the high school required a course) to catch up with his new high school's honors program (to stay on track) when he transfered from another school. He aced it but he had 5.5 weeks, compared with a full high school year, of Algebra "practice" which I have since learned is much more important than understanding the concepts. This lack of practice and facility with the Algebra II has challenged him through Pre-Calc and Calc. although my husband, the physicist, claims he milks that one</p>
<p>I don't have any advice for a specific student, but I think there is a larger issue that may prove beneficial to next year's college freshmen and their parents.</p>
<p>I am always amazed at the number of high school seniors who are dead-set certain of a career in math or science. What they don't know is how difficult math and science majors at any top college are. Here's the problem. High school math and science courses move so slowly that really bright kids pick it up with no effort. But, throw them in a fast-moving college course filled with really smart kids and it's much more difficult. Struggling with college calculus is nearly universal -- and it has nothing to do with a "5" on the AP test or high math SAT scores. If I had to guess, I would say that the most widespread life changing decision made by college freshmen is, "I'm glad I gave it a shot, but heck no, I don't want to major in math or physics!"</p>
<p>The reason that this is important to consider in advance is that choosing a tech school can put a student in real bind if he or she finds out that a career path in academic math or science is not the ticket. It's one thing to say, "OK, I'll major in political science.". It's a different ball of wax when your school only offers math and science. Message to this year's high school seniors and parents: think long and hard about painting yourself into a corner at a point when you probably have no idea what you will really gravitate towards in college. Approach college selection with the understanding that you have no clue what you will major in.</p>
<p>AnonTxMom,
As to why he just can't do it on tests...
You've noted that your son did a great deal of self study. Presumably, therefore his assessment was fairly concrete in nature. He practiced the kinds of problems that he was being taught and that is what showed up on the test.</p>
<p>I can't speak for all Tech schools, but at the one I attended when you took a test your first struggled long and hard to find anything that was remotely familiar to you- and then you tried to piecemeal to get an answer. The problems on tests were completely synthetic- they required more than just comprehensive-on-the-surface-of-it knowledge of what had been presented. You had to be able to demonstrate that knowledge in an entirely different framework. At my children's high school, which is rigorous and IB/AP oriented, my sons first had math classes which expected them to do something like this in 10th grade...Kids who could do it went on to higher math, kids who couldn't took statistics, etc... In other words, since that time they have understood what it was like to confront problems like that on a math test. They have taken tests where the class average was 32, for example, because these sorts of tests are so different. Stronger math students at our school are urged to take the AMC exams, which are further practice in these sorts of math assessments.</p>
<p>AS to the possibility of a learning difference, there are all sorts of "learning styles" that are not significant enough to matter in some situations, but make all the difference in others. Minor variations in speed of work, attention or memory retrieval may not be problematic, except in subject areas or environments that are otherwise a challenge..</p>
<p>And finally, I am surprised a school would ask a student to leave just because of a single (or even 2) poor grades in the first semester of freshman year- especially if the student has adapted in other ways. Might there be more than meets the eye?</p>
<p>Good morning! I can't thank all of you enough for your thoughtful replies. This discussion is helping me to understand the problem in some different ways. Justinmeche, you give an especially good description of your experiences, and I really appreciate your sharing them with us. Robrym, I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but son is not in his freshman year. I wish it was. It might be easier for him to transfer. We tried to convince him to make a change earlier, but he loved it and didn't want to "quit."</p>
<p>Ok, the odds of there being another twin in engineering at MIT who transferred to Youngstown are slim, so I obviously mangled your story. But, hey, aren't you glad I raised your gpa to 3.7, rather than reporting you flunked out? ;)! </p>
<p>So, my apologies to you. I am glad to hear that you are doing well and I too think you gave the OP some good insights.</p>
<p>"Unless the school is public, they have absolutely no obligation to support any student with a learning disability."</p>
<p>Isn't this discrimination?</p>
<p>If it makes you feel any better, jonri, I did have a 3.8 for one of my semesters but my cumulative is a 3.5. And as far as flunking out is concerned, I was never asked to leave Cornell. I chose to leave before Cornell could ever officially kick me out. So whenever I talk to people I say "transfer" rather than "flunked out." It has a more positive connotation.</p>
<p>Re whether a Private College has "absolutely no obligation to support any student with a learning disabilty" -- that's a vast overstatement. Title III of the ADA has a broad definition of "public accomodations" which clearly covers private colleges. Regardless, btw, of whether they accept federal funds at all. The big questions are what is a disability, what is a reasonable accomodation, etc. -- far too complicated to go into on this board, but there a number of good websites if you google "ADA" "learning disability" "college" -- probably the best intro is at </p>
<p>Justin, I mean well but seem to be making matters worse. </p>
<p>I wasn't claiming that you flunked out of Cornell--didn't mean that AT ALL. I just meant that since I mangled your story, I'm glad I reported things a bit more positively than reality than worse than reality. If I were Justin, I'd rather have people thinking Justin graduated from Youngstown with a 3.7 cum gpa in engineering than thinking that after transferring from Cornell to Youngstown Justin flunked out of Youngstown. I'm embarrassed that I messed up the facts of your experience, but not as embarrassed as I'd be if I'd painted a worse rather than rosier picture of the actual outcome. Make sense now? That's really all I meant.</p>
<p>I wasn't trying to be snide..HONEST!!!</p>
<p>AnonTxmom: Is the college willing to accept him back under certain conditions if he takes time off? For example, if he gets a certain gpa in classes he takes at a state or community college? If he agrees to go to a study skills center or come in regularly to see an advisor? etc. If he comes back on probation, starts out with a smaller load, etc? Sometimes the reason colleges ask a student to leave is not just because the student has crashed and burned academically, but because he's ignored efforts of the school to offer help. There can be maturity issues here, as well as study skills. That said, sometimes people just hit that wall in technical classes. It's a different situation if they do poorly freshman year (my husband, who is an engineer, got a D in his first attempt at college calculus) vs doing progressively worse as they hit higher and higher levels in math or technical classes. </p>
<p>It must be very hard to watch this happen to your son who is technically an adult but is still your child. I hope you can find a way to get the information about his experience that will help you to help him sort out what's going on -- so that he gets more than a sense of failure out of what's happened. Is it about needing to choose a different field? a different learning environment? or something else? Good luck to all of you.</p>
<p>If he loves the school, he should consider a math tutor. Negotiate with school to allow him a chance during summer school to bring his grades up. </p>
<p>Maybe this is not the best match for a major, or perhaps he would do well to take a year working. Understanding why he didn't do well, if he can improve upon it, and how related it is to his future are essential issues for him to work out.</p>
<p>A year or two working or at a community college can be a useful path for some people. It is is path, all you can do is offer him a seat when he is tired.</p>
<p>To the OP-- wow. I share your pain. It must be awful to see your kid work hard and get so frustrated.</p>
<p>Can you help us understand if the problem is purely math related? How has he done in his non-math classes? What kind of feedback has he gotten from his professor's and TA's, and has he sought them out for some mid-course correction? </p>
<p>Nobody wants to see their kid struggle, but if he's been happy otherwise, you've obviously got a kid who belongs in college even if this one isn't a great fit academically. I think you need to work quickly to get your son to talk to a dean to assess his options-- leave permanently? take a leave of absence to return once he's made up the work someplace else? stay enrolled for one more semester, perhaps taking a light load to boost his gpa and then apply to transfer? Unlike so many cases where the kid is miserable socially so that packing up and going home is the preferred way to end the kids suffering, your son actually has options here if you can get him to tell you or find out what they are.</p>
<p>In general-- once you've dropped out, getting back on the horse is harder. If there is any way to turn his "asked to leave" status into a temporary sabbatical while he figures out his next step, that's going to make things easier for him. You also haven't mentioned the finances... is it a struggle for you to keep him there, is he working on top of his classes for a huge amount of time? Also, is he preoccupied with other stuff (girlfriend trouble, roommate with a substance abuse issue, etc.)</p>
<p>There are dozens of things your son can study which will capitalize on his obvious quantitative skills without being as taxing and dread-invoking as what he's studying now. I don't think that a person who has been a high-achiever in high school and then gets to college and discovers that they're not as good at something as they thought they were sounds like someone with an undiagnosed learning disability. Your son was at the extreme end of the math curve in high school... but now he's in a place where ALL those kids were at the extreme end, so another curve forms, and this time, he's not quite up there. Not a crime, doesn't mean he's disabled, just means he needs to figure out how to tap his strong quant skills in another field.</p>
<p>Thanks for the ideas, all of you--sorry for not answering sooner, but I had to go out of town briefly. I don't know yet what the options will be, but we should know something soon, and we're trying to be ready with suggestions. I think that learning style and maturity have been issues. He doesn't seem to want to work collaboratively, but that may reflect his feeling that he's not pulling his weight in the group. Also, when you must do academic "triage," deciding what needs to be done now and what can wait, it's hard to make the correct decision. Last term, he decided to give less time to the things he was doing OK in in order to save the really bad one. This turned out to be a bad gamble. He has tried tutors (don't know if he did this term) with little success. Some were better than others, but all were other students. As to blossom's question, his worst problems have been in math. Courses that use math have been slightly less troubling. Humanities and soc. sci. courses have been OK, but haven't received the attention that they needed because of the other problems. He has been in regular communication with the dean, and has spoken with his profs (something he was too timid to do his freshman year). He wants to take care of everything on his own. We're just wondering what the potential catastrophes are in this situation and how to suggest he avoid them.</p>
<p>I think that learning style and maturity have been issues.</p>
<p>And time management--if he poured himself into the class he was failing and neglected his other courses.</p>
<p>Keep us posted Anon...and good luck.</p>