Wesleyan vs. Colgate

Colleges and Universities A-Z Wesleyan University
1

<p>Son is looking hard at these two excellent colleges (as handle implies, D is at Vassar). Son has varsity sport (swimming) for which he's being looked at by each school and is competitive at each (despite Colgate's D1 status, his times are competitive; Wes, D3, has top level new coach and nowhere to go but up in NESCAC; both have great facilities and either experience would be superb for him), at least median if not better test scores (which may improve), > 4.0 grades, top 25% at recognized high school and will get superb recommendations. Especially with swimming, I think he's competitive for admission at either (indeed, fwiw (and I know this is but the tip of a large iceberg which I'd rather not, Titanic-like, blunder into), the latest USNWR rankings place them next to each other, Colgate moving up to 18 and Wes down to 17 (yes, I know rankings suck; yes, I know they're indispensible; yes, I know Wes' endowment is off [indeed, some accuse rankings of being merely a proxy for $$ in endowment] forcing selective non-need-blind admissions [whereas, Colgate has never been need blind]; and yes, Wes' rank at the moment is probably lower than its intrinsic rank, but then I always felt that Colgate's has always been lower than it should have been, having looked at the school for the whole time I've been a college parent, since circa 2000, i.e., two other kids; so yes I know all that stuff, as do most of you).</p>

<p>My question is: how do you compare the experience, mainly academic but also social? Both are roughly the same size and larger for a LAC, which is good. Wes has Middletown, somewhat more than Hamilton but maybe not that much. (D at Vassar exists in the V bubble and doesn't expect to do much in Po-town except that it's true that NYC is a 2-hr train ride away, neither of which is true for C or W, and esp. less so for C - I'm not sure that all schools don't have a bubble and I'm not sure the bubble is bad at all.)</p>

<p>Wes strikes me as kinda like Vassar in that no core requirements, study what you want, etc. Colgate's core (my impression) is nowhere near an actual real core (only one or two left in the entire USofA I believe, e.g., Columbia's), but has a core element. Colgate apparently grades hard to the point of some thinking they're losing out on grad/law/med school apps to places like Harvard where ridiculously more than 80% (maybe a lot more) of the class graduates with honors (at Cornell, at most 8-10%, at Columbia, 25%). How does Wes grade? How do you think the academic experience would compare between Wesleyan and Colgate if it would compare at all? S's interest is history and other liberal arts, future possibly in law or business but could also be academic (after maturing), but very unlikely to be STEM unless something amazin' happens.</p>

<p>Socially, compare and contrast the students at Wesleyan vs. Colgate, and the campus social styles, if you would. Wes has some frats, but general style is not Greek; Colgate is still I would hazard traditionally Greek, but with (now) firm admin control. Over the long Hamilton winter, not a bad thing? And even without considering frats, what do most kids do?</p>

<p>Finally, we will need financial aid, and will likely apply ED. Neither is need blind (Wes may be only partially not need blind), but we have suffered reverses and continue to struggle. But we are committed to having S continue family tradition of first class education. And price calculator for each showed Colgate somewhat more generous with somewhat less loan amounts for S, but Wes' cap at $20K of student loans for 4 years is not so bad (if you think Wes is otherwise worth it). S also wants to swim in college, but (apart from Colgate or Lafayette) will never be D1 like, say, Stanford or USC, but he is very competitive at Colgate and in D3 (well, maybe not at Kenyon or Williams). Has narrowed choices down (don't know why, but scratched M'bury and Bowdoin and Colby and Bates and Hamilton and Haverford and thinks only serious geeks go to Swarthmore, and no midwest or Calif. schools, and liked Williams but didn't like Amherst but won't apply to either) to Wesleyan vs. Colgate, but they seem on surface very different. Can anyone help? The ED deadline approacheth.</p>

2

<p>@vassardad:</p>

<p>I’m sorry that I can’t at all comment on how to compare/contrast Colgate and Wesleyan. I may be able to give some insight regarding financial aid at Wes, however.</p>

<p>Our daughter is a freshman at Wesleyan this year, and, for the most part, she loves it (didn’t love being assigned to Bennet Hall, a rather noisy and rambunctious dorm, but D has a GREAT roommate and this more than makes up for it). </p>

<p>We too are a financial aid family, and one of the main reasons D chose Wes was because of the very generous financial aid offer she was given. I think the adcoms really liked her, since they sent her an early letter, and maybe that’s why she got such a great package. In any case, despite Wesleyan’s financial meekness compared to peer institutions, our daughter, at least, got a terrific aid award (and her parents couldn’t be happier, since without it, it would have been impossible for us to afford a fancy private college like Wesleyan). </p>

<p>The financial aid department was even willing to throw in extra grants to cover the cost of health insurance for her when I requested this, since we’re an uninsured family. I’m sure you can imagine that our loyalty to Wes was enhanced after discovering first hand the congruence between Wes’s liberal reputation and actual reality as evidenced by the spirit of caring and generosity that we’ve been shown. Despite the school’s “poor cousin” status among Little Ivies, my experience has been that there really IS a commitment at Wes to making it possible for the non-wealthy to attend.</p>

<p>You mentioned “Wes’s cap at $20K of student loans for 4 years …” </p>

<p>I was unaware of this. Could you elaborate? </p>

<p>Is this a cap for the total amount of loans taken out over the entire 4-year period of undergraduate study, or is it a yearly cap (i.e. up to $20K in loans per year for each of four years, potentially $80K in total by graduation)? </p>

<p>Are only student loans capped? Or is it possible that parents might be expected to take out additional loans themselves once student loans hit the cap?</p>

<p>I realize you were asking for assistance, and here I am asking for yours. Hope you don’t mind.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

3

<p>My understanding is that the cap applies to student loans, probably only, and that it is a cumulative total for the 4 years. The cap is self-imposed by Wes. From the glossy ‘newspaper’ style publication we received recently from Wes in the finaid section (last inside cover page): “FINANCIAL AID PACKAGES. Most families earning $40,000 or less, once need is determined, will be offered a package of grants and work-study - no loans. Most students whose families are Pell eligible but earn more than $40,000 will qualify for a reduced-loan package. All other students will be packaged with the standard Federal Direct loan for their class year. Wesleyan asks students to borrow no more than a total of $19,000 over four years.” This info is also to be found on the finaid website (I think).</p>

<p>This is based on the Fed Direct loan limits per class year, as follows (note numbers are higher, hence belief that Wes’ cap is self-imposed; note also includes info for dependent students ie most students and also independent (will be few) and also some grad info)(note also that distinguishes between subsidized and unsubsidized loans, beyond the scope of this discussion, except that subsidized is better):</p>

<pre><code> "Annual Maximum Loan Limits
</code></pre>

<p>Freshman: 0 - 29 credit hours Dependent Student: $5,500 (no more than $3,500 subsidized) Independent Student: $9,500 (no more than $3,500 subsidized)</p>

<p>Sophomore: 30 - 59 credit hours Dependent Student: $6,500 (no more than $4500 subsidized). Independent Student: $10,500 (no more than $4500 subsidized) </p>

<p>Junior/Senior: 60+ credit hours Dependent Student: $7,500 (no more than $5500 subsidized). Independent Student: $12,500 (no more than $5500 subsidized) </p>

<p>Graduate Professional Dependent Student: N/A. Independent Student: $20,500 </p>

<p>Veterinary Medicine Dependent Student: N/A. Independent Student: $40,500 </p>

<pre><code> Aggregate Maximum Loan Limits [note these are Fed caps,
not school caps which can be, as Wes’ apparently are, lower.]
</code></pre>

<p>Dependent UGrad Student $31,000 (no more than $23,000 subsidized)<br>
Independent UGrad Student $57,500 (no more than $23,000 subsidized)<br>
Graduate Professional $138,500 (no more than $65,500 subsidized)
Veterinary Medicine $189,125 (no more than $65,500 subsidized) [I guess someone thinks we need vets more than other graduate professionals.] [Don’t know if the grad limits INCLUDE your ugrad borrowings - wouldn’t surprise me that they do, which forces you as a grad into other, more expensive, debt, i.e., private loans.]"</p>

<p>So the implication if not direct statement is that the max student loans you will graduate with assuming shown need over the 4 years is $19K and probably all subsidized. </p>

<p>Also, using the Wes online finaid calculator showed first year $3,500 student loans at Wes which if it stayed that way all 4 years would be $14K, so I think loans inch up slightly in later years (as it also does in the overall Fed limit table above) but still inline with, I believe, the overall limit of $19K for student loans. Frankly, this is a very respectable number for such a fine school, and not so high as to inhibit IMHO post grad life or grad school borrowings or post grad school life. Before the new-found “no loan” and “many grants” policies, starting with HYP and trickling down from there (which has everything to do with avoiding taxation on their massive compounded reinvested endowment earnings for a nonprofit entity and nothing to do with actual generosity), another of ours finished Cornell with $30K in loans. Of course, her last year, to start the next year, they announced the new “no loan” policy or at least ‘fewer loans’. Nonetheless, all’s well, etc. Other kid finished at similar fine school also just before they got ‘generous’ with $21k in student debt, class of 09, so $19K in student debt (payable over 10 or up to 30 years with public interest forgiveness in certain circumstances) for a Wes education is ok by me.</p>

4

<p>From the middle paragraph on the first page of the Wes finaid site:</p>

<pre><code> “You do not have to be wealthy or even well off to come to Wesleyan, as the sample packages show. The average grant is around $38,000 and nobody is asked to borrow more than $3,500 as a first-year student, $4,500 as a sophomore, or $5,500 as a junior or senior. In 2011-12, our students received financial aid awards ranging from $3,500 to $55,300. These students came from families with annual incomes between $0 and $285,000.”
</code></pre>

<p>3500+4500+5500+5500=19K</p>

5

<p>Let me start out by saying that I am a Wesleyan alumnus and my son is a sophomore there and long ago when I applied to colleges, Colgate was my second choice. Since both my son and I got into Wesleyan early decision, neither one of us got to apply there. But I did take him on a campus visit in the middle of winter two years ago, snow flying, and the air as frigid as central NY state gets in that season. We were the only family visiting that day, and we had just spent the morning at Hamilton. </p>

<p>The tour guide was an amiable young man from Long Island, a junior who incessantly pointed out how so many things at Colgate were of the number 13–founded by 13 men with 13 prayers, the zip code has the number 13, many stairs have 13 steps, etc. I asked him about the lovely village, and he said, “yes, it is a great place to drink”, and complained that some of the frat parties would not allow underage beer drinking. So suddenly he asked us if we wanted to see the inside of a dorm room. We said we did and he led us up four flights of stairs to his sister’s room. She was in there, and she was drunk, with a half-consumed bottle of bourbon.</p>

<p>My son saw that and that was the end of his interest in Colgate, despite my urgings to see the campus tour as an odd and unrepresentative view of the school. When college acceptances came around at his high school, he pointed out that the one student from his school who chose to go to Colgate was also known as one of the heaviest drinkers and partiers in the class.</p>

<p>Now to balance this vignette out, I will also say that a few months later, I attended a Silicon Valley conference on mergers and acquisitions held by some of the largest high tech companies here. The most impressive speaker I heard that day was a Colgate grad. </p>

<p>As to my own impressions, I would say that Wesleyan is a much more intellectually oriented college and it has a stronger faculty and more diverse and academically gifted student body. As to Greek life, 45% of Colgate students belong to a fraternity or sorority; at Wes, 3% of men are in frats and 1% of women are in sororities. Middletown is an actual city that provides numerous volunteer activities for students as well as some interesting internships. Hamilton, NY is a tiny village that is simply an extension of the Colgate campus. And it is a tiny village literally in the middle of nowhere. I would also assert that a serious student could get a fine education at both places. And finally, I would say that the proximity of Wesleyan to Colgate on this year’s USNWR ought not to be a factor that carries any weight at all.</p>

6

<p>Morganhil,</p>

<p>I am not sure about your assertion- and that’s what it is- that Wesleyan is a more intellectually oriented college and it has a stronger faculty and more diverse and academically gifted student body. As to Greek life, 45% of Colgate students belong to a fraternity or sorority, as you put it.</p>

<p>The first is your impression and that’s fine with me as that’s what it is. But since there are 6 fraternities and 3 sororities that during any year will have 540 members (9 X 60 members, and that’s being generous) drawn from a student body of 2900, well, I don’t know about 45%. Colgate students are not eligible for Greek membership for their first 2 years and more than 65% of students participate in study groups elsewhere, typically during junior year. So 45%? Further, what’s wrong with the Greek system at Colgate and how does this relate to whatever students do elsewhere?</p>

<p>And then there is your other assertion about the relative quality of Colgate faculty, isn’t there. Not sure how that was derived either…</p>

<p>About Hamilton, it’s a charming place and has more to offer than you might appreciate. There are a good number of cultural and athletics-related opportunities delivered on campus and in town, on offer to entertain and engage us- and that’s just today! The community is tight, contained, safe and supportive. That’s my assertion and I am happy to corroborate. </p>

<p>Good luck to applicants who include Colgate in their search for the right fit and I hope you find what you are looking for!</p>

7

<p>If swimming is important, he NESCAC Conference is hard to beat and in D3 he would have a chance to qualify for NCAA championships.</p>

8

<p>Violao:</p>

<p>Regarding the percentage of Colgate students who belong to fraternities and sororities, I used Colgate’s Wikipedia entry–which referred to a 2009 Colgate website entry-- as my source.</p>

<p>[Colgate</a> University - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgate_University]Colgate”>Colgate University - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>However, Colgate’s own website reports that about 40% of all upperclassmen belong to a fraternity or sorority:</p>

<p>[Fraternities</a> and Sororities - Fraternity and Sorority Affairs - Greek](<a href=“http://www.colgate.edu/campus-life/fraternities-and-sororities]Fraternities”>Fraternities and Sororities | Colgate University)</p>

<p>According to all data I have–including meeting with Colgate’s Assistant Dean of Admissions one on one in 2010 and having a private tour by the aforementioned Colgate junior—fraternities have a dominating impact on the social scene at Colgate. This sharply contrasts with Wesleyan’s social scene, where, as I indicated, only 3% of all upperclassmen and 1% of upperclasswomen are in Greek life.</p>

9

<p>I am glad you have clarified that it’s 40% of upperclassmen that are affiliated with the Greek system at Colgate vs your earlier assertion of 45% of all students.</p>

<p>About Greek life at Colgate, I thought I would represent the good these entities perform in the context of the Residential Life objectives that guide Colgate’s on-campus units which comprise the themed houses (often former fraternities), the townhouses, apartments and traditional dormitories. </p>

<p>Yesterday I attended a fundraising dinner at Delta Upsilon for the Colgate Chapter of Uplifting Athletes, a nonprofit organization, with this year’s focus on raising money for Ependymoma research, a rare cancer of the brain and spinal chord. I understand that several universities are so engaged and often the Greek system is the ideal conduit for such activities. That’s a good thing all around, in my view.</p>

<p>Further, and to give a taste of this weekend’s activities, we enjoyed the following varsity home athletic events, all DI level: Homecoming football with a win over Patriot League (PL) opponent Holy Cross, the volleyball coach’s victory over PL American (his 100th win), women’s ice hockey wins over non-league U Connecticut, a split at field hockey against PL Lehigh and loss against non-league Davidson, and club men’s rugby win over conference member Ithaca College which leads to next weekend’s regional DII quarterfinals. </p>

<p>There are many differences between the student life opportunities at Colgate and Wesleyan, it would seem, and so it’s just as well that applicants appreciate and take advantage of whatever it is that suits them.</p>