What are "smart but lazy" kids supposed to do with their lives?

[Deborah_T]

<p>I must have been distracted this morning. I addressed my post to garland instead of SlackerDad. Sorry about that!</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

And please don’t overvalue “intelligence” - it’s just not the most important thing out there. I been in some hiring positions, and although I value intelligence, it doesn’t mean much without cooperation, some willingness to compromise, and a halfway decent work ethic (which I’ve learned to develop). I have a hard time believing that others have not picked the the slack for slackerdad or else I think he would have learned these lessons a long time ago.

</p>

<p>IMHO, having high intelligence without the work ethic to demonstrate it effectively…whether through good grades, evaluations/promotions, produced product/service/work of a creative/artistic nature, efforts to help others(i.e. tutoring or providing assistance with one’s assistance to those who need it), and otherwise enabling the living of a reasonably good life…is meaningless. </p>

<p>It is one reason along with how IME…it tends to be used as an excuse by upper/upper-middle class parents for laziness not borne of disabilities like ADD why I have little patience for students and parents who say their children are “smart, but lazy”. And that’s considering the fact I saw some parts of myself mirrored in the OP during my high school years. </p>

<p>The way it was used by those parents…including a few who happen to be older relatives…it seems to be a way for them to put a “positive spin” on their kids’ lack of work ethic/good results as a way to avoid the possibility their kids may not actually be as intelligent or otherwise as talented and capable as they would like everyone to believe…including themselves.</p>

<p>

People skills are useful but often not necessary.

</p>

<p>People’s skills are extremely important, even in the engineering/technological sciences. That’s been my own experience working in IT as well as several dozen Engineering/CS friends…including those who work for Google and Microsoft.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

We may need to rethink terms like slacker, and lazy. In the conventional sense my son was and is a slacker. But instead of getting bogged down with memorizing Civil War dates, he was reading philosophy, political science, technology, the big bang. But you don’t get rewarded for intellectual curiosity.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This is funny because most of my friends and I referred to ourselves as slackers. </p>

<p>There is a spectrum of laziness and slacker-dom. One of the biggest slackers in my high school became a dotcom multi-millionaire (and by multi-, I mean MULTI). However, though he didn’t try in school too much he did fool around with computers a lot.</p>

<p>There are some things which you have to do, and some things you don’t. I think even if you are lazy, you should force yourself to do enough to get a “B.”</p>

[ellemenope]

<p>

My feeling is there is nothing at all the matter with SlackerDad, but there is something wrong with the rest of us and our culture of achieve, achieve, achieve.

</p>

<p>I would at least try to achieve some health insurance…just saying…</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>

Missypie, while I don’t have sympathy for the OP as he presented himself (no reflection on his son), I have plenty for your son and for you. It sounds like a much different situation.

</p>

<p>But it isn’t a much different situation. It’s exactly the same situation. That is, it’s different in degree, but not in kind. If you look at people like SlackerDad and me, people who would likely be diagnosed with ADHD-inattentive, we’re the ones who have kids like Missypie’s son. You can look at “lazy” as a moral judgement, but in fact in these cases it’s clearly, clearly neurological. That’s not an excuse for employers-- that is, employers shouldn’t be and aren’t required to employ people who don’t work hard enough-- but it is a fact.</p>

[SlackerDad]

<p>Still working my way through–glad things have slowed down a bit. :)</p>

<p>

Smart, lazy people need well-defined job parameters, and government jobs can fill that bill. The government benefits from having brilliant people around, too.

</p>

<p>I actually think this makes a lot of sense–especially about having well-defined paramaters. I think my nightmare job would be one where I did not have set working hours and was expected to stay late (some nebulous amount of time) and take initiative to seek out and add extra responsibilities oto my portfolio. ::shudder::</p>

<p>

Finally, talk to your son about the things you regret, about things you wish you had done differently. Make him aware of those early decisions’ negative impacts on your future options, employability, and happiness. Make sure your son realizes that he WILL have to work at something during his life. The better he does in school, the more options he will have as far as what types of jobs he works at.

</p>

<p>I have had just this kind of talk with him, but I don’t know that it has had all that much of an impact. I don’t know that he sees me as having a ruinously failed life, and how much do I really want to try to convince him otherwise, you know?</p>

<p>

I doubt that anyone hates an amiable bright slacker.

</p>

<p>Oh, you’d be surprised. Would that it were so.</p>

<p>

The completion of school, whether high school, trade school or college, is a requirement for most jobs, even government jobs . Without education credentials, people are at the mercy of the low end of the job market. I don’t see it as optimal for a highly intelligent person to work for a boss having a fraction of their intelligence who can intimidate and lord it over them.

</p>

<p>That’s for sure!</p>

<p>

I think many of these “lazy” kids end up running businesses. They need constant stimulation.

</p>

<p>I did start a business, but it failed after a couple years.</p>

<p>

You also mentioned, I believe, working hard on political campaigns. What is there in common among the things that do seem to elicit a “work ethic” from you?

</p>

<p>I was willing to put a lot of time and effort into the business I mentioned just above, although it took me much longer to get it up and running than I had expected, and I’m sure a more “type A” person would have got it going much faster.</p>

<p>Additionally, if some issue (like the economic ones I mentioned upthread) catches my interest, I will spend hours–days, even–doggedly researching it and writing a lengthy treatise on it. Sometimes however I lose steam before I’m finished.</p>

<p>

Original poster should go back to college himself and prove to his son that he can finish.

</p>

<p>I do intend to do this within the next five years, probably from the University of Missouri’s all-online General Studies program. I have something like 170 semester hours accumulated from various schools, so I should be able to do it within a couple semesters I’d think.</p>

<p>

I think someone of National Merit Finalist intelligence level could teach a high school class well without having to put in a huge amount of effort.

</p>

<p>I agree with this, but unfortunately it’s a moot point as it will never happen.</p>

<p>

Having money does not necessarily mean that you have worked hard, and working hard does not necessarily mean that you’ll have money.

</p>

<p>True 'dat!</p>

<p>

The movie “Office Space” resonates deeply with my family

</p>

<p>Same here–good call.</p>

<p>

As another smart but lazy (and probably ADD) person, I have little sympathy for slackerdad. I was NMF, so-so grades, and flunked out of college my freshman year. But you what, I matured. I realize that although no one loves mundane work some of it is necessary to achieve your other goals. I think I was lucky to see early the lives of others who took alternative more “fulfilling” paths, and I realized that poverty did not suit me. So I worked, even when I didn’t like it, finished college and grad school and became a professional.

</p>

<p>Good for you. It must be especially fulfilling for you to be able to sit on your pedestal and express your lack of sympathy for others.</p>

<p>

I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact a parent would rather be lazy(in OP’s case, it is out of laziness) than to provide a healthy environment for his/her children, and I am specifically referencing the fact OP hasn’t had health insurance for over a decade.[…]
OP started this thread to get sympathy from people and to make himself feel better. […]Sounds judgemental, but I would have scrubbed floors (held down multiple jobs) to make sure my kids could have health insurance and proper food on the table.

</p>

<p>Omigod, where to begin? Someone really did finally get my dander up. Okay, let’s just go through this in order. </p>

<p>First, “would rather be lazy”? Do you think I wake up in the morning and ask myself, “would I rather be lazy or industrious?” Seriously? To get back to the metaphysical issue posed by the Sports Illustrated excerpt, what does it mean for someone to choose to be lazy? Does that mean I am just inherently immoral, then? </p>

<p>Second, who says I am not providing “a healthy environment for [my] children”? I am not providing an affluent environment by American standards, but a Haitian refugee would see it differently. My kids may wear clothes from the Salvation Army, but those clothes fit them, are clean and in perfectly good condition (no holes or stains). They are healthy, proper weight for height, and both of the school-age kids are in the very selective gifted program at school (I haven’t mentioned my daughter because I have little worry about her future since she has both the high test scores and the diligent work ethic, not to mention how generous and kind she is). Both older kids are regularly complimented on their excellent manners, and they certainly are not spoiled (my son was in awe of the fact that we got him the night vision goggles he had been eyeing in the store as his sole birthday present, sputtering “but-but-those were FIFTY DOLLARS!”).</p>

<p>Third, no I did not start this thread to get sympathy. I actually did not expect all that much of it based on past experience and based on the fact that this forum is inherently oriented around status and achievement. I did as I already said vent my spleen to make myself feel better, but I see nothing to apologise for in that.</p>

<p>Fourth, all three of my kids have health coverage; it’s just my wife and I who do not. Yes, the kids are on Medicaid, but I’m not going to listen to any Tea Party gripes about that because I believe health care should be a universal right like it is in all other industrialised nations. Oh, and my wife and I will be covered as soon as she gets a teaching position–possibly as soon as this August.</p>

<p>Fifth, “proper food on the table” is extra funny, because I don’t know anyone who eats as well as my kids do. Their diet is based on the very latest nutritional research: lots of multicoloured fruits and veggies, carbs are whole grains and legumes only, no hydrogenated oils, artificial ingredients, or HFCS…etc.</p>

<p>

This is funny because most of my friends and I referred to ourselves as slackers.
There is a spectrum of laziness and slacker-dom. One of the biggest slackers in my high school became a dotcom multi-millionaire

</p>

<p>I agree that there is a spectrum. I’m pretty far on one end of the spectrum, although the one friend I mentioned earlier is farther.</p>

<p>

You can look at “lazy” as a moral judgement, but in fact in these cases it’s clearly, clearly neurological. That’s not an excuse for employers-- that is, employers shouldn’t be and aren’t required to employ people who don’t work hard enough-- but it is a fact.

</p>

<p>I agree with all of this, including the part about employers. But as I say, I do think employers would be wise to seek to rent our “processing power” on the cheap, as it were. I’m not going to out-compete a type A person in terms of dedication, long hours, etc.; but if you can get me to work 1/3 of the hours for 1/10th the pay, why not?</p>

<p>As for the neurological part of it–I came into this discussion convinced it was hard-wired in. I was initially quite sceptical, though, that it was anything that could be “cured” simply by popping a pill in my mouth a couple times a day. But right now I’m intensely curious to try some Ritalin, though I’ll have to wait at least until I’ve got health insurance. It would be amazing, though, if I could suddenly experience what ambitious, industrious people feel all the time. And if that does happen, to think it would all come back to this thread</p>

<p>For those people who scoff at the idea that this is a neurological thing: do you also pooh-pooh it when people are so clinically depressed they can’t get out of bed? My “condition” is related, except that I’m perfectly happy to get out of bed and get moving if I’m doing something “fun”. It’s when something is a drag that it just seems like a towering mountain to climb, and I look at others in amazement that they can just grit their teeth and do it.</p>

[toodleooo]

<p>“My feeling is there is nothing at all the matter with SlackerDad, but there is something wrong with the rest of us…” yeah, for wasting time reading this endless slacker-drivel (i just skipped from page 1 to this last, so if something worthwhile happened in the middle - great. marlon brando once compared this kind of narcicisstic self-analysis to “picking the lint out of your navel…and smoking it.” he should know. slacker, i’d suggest a shrink but you’ve no doubt found that boring as well. and going on and on and on and on gets expensive, eh?</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>Maybe you should star in a reality show. The Situation made 5 million last year.</p>

<p>How’s this for a title for the show, “I’m smarter than you who cares I don’t!”</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>On a less comical note, I do think there is a genetic component to work ethic. </p>

<p>But you can always try to shore up weaknesses. I guess the central question is, “Does it bother you that nothing has come from your talents–that it hasn’t contributed to the world?” Not everyone aspires to change the world, but there is some satisfaction in holding up your tiny piece of the world. </p>

<p>Also, have you thought about writing a blog? A polymath could glide from one topic to another and perhaps make out a living if good enough (from advertisements on the page). It might be tough to do so. In fact, you might have to work hard to do produce writing interesting enough to attract readership.</p>

<p>There was a U. of Chicago grad that started out studying baseball statistics and doing a blog on it. Later he started studying politics and applying statistics to it. He attracted a lot of attention for his unique insights and has become an up-and-coming expert. I saw him being interviewed on MSNBC the other day. His bachelor’s degree wasn’t what got him respect because he went by a pseudonym on the web until he got famous.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

Quote:
I think someone of National Merit Finalist intelligence level could teach a high school class well without having to put in a huge amount of effort. </p>

<p>I agree with this, but unfortunately it’s a moot point as it will never happen.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>If you go back to school, you could go for a teaching certificate. It wouldn’t be that hard if you wanted to do it.</p>

[lakerace]

<p>I fit this description perfectly. My grades in HS ranged from A’s to D’s, but I aced most of my tests and walked all over the SAT’s. However, due to my grades, I ended up going to a community college.</p>

<p>I finally got focused in college and after 2 years, I’m about to transfer to a UC, most likely Irvine. The trick for me was that I stopped trying to meet my parent’s expectations and worry about what they wanted. Instead, when I started college, I decided to only think about what it is that I wanted. I motivated myself to succeed, not my parents or teachers or counselors, and as a result, I’m already seeing the benefits of my hard-work.</p>

[ADad]

<p>

I’m perfectly happy to get out of bed and get moving if I’m doing something “fun”. It’s when something is a drag that it just seems like a towering mountain to climb, and I look at others in amazement that they can just grit their teeth and do it.

</p>

<p>You seem to have a track record of pride and energy in activities in which you can have a central role in the action: business owner, parent, threadstarter, tutor. You can also summon energy for social activism.</p>

<p>How interested are you in one-on-one competition? Do you play any games, do you play them seriously, do you try to win?</p>

<p>You mentioned that you will be completing your college degree in due course. What brings you to want to do that?</p>

<p>

do you also pooh-pooh it when people are so clinically depressed they can’t get out of bed? My “condition” is related.

</p>

<p>

i’d suggest a shrink

</p>

<p>Considering that you compare your condition to depression, and that you are open to a pharmacological solution, what is your reaction to the idea of counseling, perhaps after your wife obtains insurance?</p>

[oldfort]

<p>

Fourth, all three of my kids have health coverage; it’s just my wife and I who do not. Yes, the kids are on Medicaid, but I’m not going to listen to any Tea Party gripes about that because I believe health care should be a universal right like it is in all other industrialised nations

</p>

<p>Your kids have health insurance because suckers like us, who get up everyday to do things we don’t always like to do, pay taxes. You need to make a viable contribution to the society in order to make that statement.</p>

[CaptDunsel]

<p>

One of the things I’m learning from this thread is that there are apparently more of us out there than I ever realised. Doesn’t that strike anyone as a waste of brainpower that could be put to good use if–yes–society could make a little more accommodation for us? I don’t mean “accommodation” in the sense of a handout; I mean give us some interesting and important problems to tackle, a flexible schedule to work with, and just a modest level of pay (I’d be happy with $20K a year).

</p>

<p>Yup, it’s called “consulting.” I think I might be on your spectrum, OP. I did well enough in school to keep going - graduated law school, went out on my own for a while, then went to work for someone who started a consulting business to integrate technology into law firms and wanted lawyers as project managers for credibility. I traveled all the time, went into law firms and got paid pretty well to make observations and suggest solutions. This was in the 80s, when introducing computer technology was a big deal and traveling was not. I did okay and my boss got rich.</p>

<p>Then I had a kid, on my own, which put an end to traveling. I did what was also suggested here, became a teacher - special ed. Found a niche with “twice exceptional” children, and was lucky enough to wind up in a district that will try out of the box solutions - but only for IEP kids (My administrators will say, “Well, we’ve never tried that before, but if it keeps us out of a lawsuit…”). </p>

<p>But my real passion was raising my own kid, I admit it. He’s not like me - smart AND motivated. So, this summer I’ll be shipping him off to Yale (and yes, we are getting a lot of financial aid; I’ll be paying 10% of my salary. Should I apologize?) Hence my screen name.</p>

<p>I think I will go back to consulting. Maybe I can push more districts into trying special solutions for special kids. (And I’m not saying I’m inventing sliced bread, here. Something basic like getting kids a job that you wouldn’t normally hire a high school kid to do; working with the employer to get the right working conditions, then interviewing the employer: would have thought to hire this kid and work out these accommodations? (No) But since you did, was it a good idea? (Yes) Would you do it again? (Sure) Would you write a letter saying that? (No problem). You’d be surprised what doors a folder with a few of those letters will open.)</p>

<p>So there you go…</p>

[lyrabelacqua]

<p>Love your post, CaptDunsel. Could see myself doing something like that.</p>

<p>Working on something obsessively for days, then dropping it and moving on to the next thing (sometimes without finishing the first) sounds like classic ADHD hyperfocus to me. Learning how to control it, and make it work for me instead of against me, is probably my main challenge right now.</p>

[lake42ks]

<p>I won’t call OP lazy. People like him will work like crazy if that’s something they like. Society certainly should put them into good use. However, he’s part of the society so he needs to help too. Maybe finishing school is the first step.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>As much as we like to wax about the importance of doing things we have a passion for, the fear of failure can be a useful tool to motivate the grunt work neccesary for any accomplishment. It is something to consider as the OP seems to lack this.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>Apparently I need to re-post a portion of my post #44, as I received a nasty PM last night about what I didn’t say:</p>

<p>

As someone who has been frustrated (in my recent roles in education) with slacker high school boys, there are a couple of things I notice — even among those with NO ADD or similar clinical issues:</p>

<p>(1) If Dad’s not a role model with regard to work ethic himself (or if he’s not around, as with single-Mom households/very absent fathers), it will be extremely difficult to get him motivated. Females don’t do it

</p>

<p>So perhaps someone can show me publicly here, where I referenced:</p>

<p>Students with clinical issues
Dads with clinical issues
Stay-at-home Dads</p>

<p>If anything, my post obliquely referred to Stay Away From Home Dads. (Otherwise known as, My Wife Will Do the Parenting For Both of Us That I Can’t Be Bothered With; my role will kick in 1-2 years before college.) Yeah, that works real well IRL. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>There are several different operating possibilities here, several different topics:</p>

<p>Personality/preferences
Character
Clinical isues (Dad)
Clinical issues (Son)
Parenting style</p>

<p>Anyone’s free to make his/her own choices in life. It’s just highly unrealistic to make an unambitious person into an ambitious person (a) soon/“overnight” or (b) if the main same-gender role model(s) is non-ambitious for any of the above reasons.</p>

<p>Clinical issues imply manifestations and outcomes that need to be worked around.
Preferences imply consequences.</p>

[susgeek]

<p>It is a different world than the one we grew up in.</p>

<p>My younger S started high school like that. I told him I was responsible for ensuring that he was capable of supporting himself. So he needed to choose. If he continued on his academic track (doing just the minimum), then when 11th grade arrived he would have to enroll in vocational training at our local BOCES. If he wanted to go to college, he would have to put his butt in gear immediately.</p>

<p>He chose college, put his butt in gear, and will be attending IBE Honors @ Lehigh in the fall.</p>

<p>Ultimately, though, his choices will be his own. If he were, God forbid, to return to his lackadaisical ways, and didn’t finish college, it will be his choice and his life.</p>

<p>Good luck! <em>hugs</em></p>

[seren50]

<p>Toodleoo #87 - THANK YOU.</p>