<p>I see. So having many undergraduate alums is a bad thing but having many graduate alums is a good thing? Got it. Thanks for clarifying.</p>
<p>Yes. Undergraduate is slightly more standard. Graduate school- some schools might have a business school, a law school, a medical school, 1 year masters programs, graduate school with diverse degrees. Graduate school is diverse. A student who gets into a 1 year journalism program at Columbia is different from a student heading to Columbia for a 5-6 year biophysics Phd program.</p>
<p>Anyways point is that the discussion is about undergrad selectivity in which one has a 0.5 chance of getting in Mich if he or she applies. One cannot generalize at the graduate level because of the diversity of programs.</p>
<p>
Then are Harvard and Duke in the same class because only 8 spots separate them this year and only 4 have historically? I think Columbia is significantly stronger academically and slightly more prestigious than Brown despite the fact that they both have pretty strong undergraduate focus, selectivity, student bodies, etc. While Penn and Cornell are both academically stronger, the former outpaces the latter in every conceivable other measure how well-renowned a university is (selectivity, financial resources, quality of student body, employer prestige, etc. etc.) except for fellowship and PhD production.</p>
<p>Anybody who argues that Duke is anything but a top 10 school is a complete uneducated fool. Duke has been a top 10 school ever since 1990 and is one of six schools to share that honor along with Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT. It has traditionally been the 6th highest ranked university in the country by USNWR since 1987, when the methodology changed to become the one we all recognize today.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/540990-u-s-news-rankings-throughout-years.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/540990-u-s-news-rankings-throughout-years.html</a></p>
<p>Duke is also the 6th highest producer of prestigious fellowships following HYPSM.</p>
<p>[K-State</a> awards](<a href=“Admissions at Kansas State University”>Admissions at Kansas State University)</p>
<p>Duke’s student body has the 7th highest amount of National Merit Scholars as well.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf</a></p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard: 266</li>
<li>Yale: 234</li>
<li>Princeton: 196</li>
<li>University of Pennsylvania: 125</li>
<li>Stanford: 110</li>
<li>MIT: 110</li>
<li>Duke: 105
…
? Michigan: 58</li>
</ol>
<p>Michigan has 4x the undergraduate population of Duke and yet has half of the number of National Merit Scholars. </p>
<p>TOP 10 SCHOOLS (in no specific order)
Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Penn
Columbia
Duke
Caltech
University of Chicago</p>
<p>These are the top 10 universities for undergraduate education in my opinion and NONE of them could ever be replaced by Berkeley or Michigan. All 10 of these places are strong research institutions with great academics, selectivity, financial resources and prestige. I could see people saying Dartmouth or Brown or Northwestern belong and that’s fine. At least those schools are viable candidates but putting Michigan on this list in favor of any of the current schools on it would make you like a complete buffoon.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>suit yourself. You make similar statements yourself about other universities. You just referred to the public schools in new york as mediocre. You do this like all the time, being obsessed over Duke for some unknown reason. I don’t see why you have a problem with the fact that I don’t have a high opinion of Michigan as an undergraduate school.</p>
<p>“You do this like all the time, being obsessed over Duke for some unknown reason.”</p>
<p>Actually, it is lesdiablesbleus (and several other Duke students/alums) who is obsessed with Michigan, not rjkofovi with Duke. rjk did not have an issue with Duke until long after guys like lesdiablesbleus consistantly bashed Michigan. </p>
<p>“I don’t see why you have a problem with the fact that I don’t have a high opinion of Michigan as an undergraduate school.”</p>
<p>Because you are stating your opinion as if it were fact. We each have our preferences, but those do not translate into facts.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not true. I am obviously stating an opinion. My claim though is that the opinion of others including the former president of Stanford does not supersede mine except proven. I will not take it as intuitive why an administrator of a school would know more about universities than other individuals who have performed personal research.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Rjk usually brings duke into most discussions b4 any mention of michigan, so I find it hard to believe.</p>
<p>“Not true. I am obviously stating an opinion. My claim though is that the opinion of others including the former president of Stanford does not supersede mine except proven.”</p>
<p>You should specify more often that you are stating opinion, not facts. </p>
<p>“I will not take it as intuitive why an administrator of a school would know more about universities than other individuals who have performed personal research.”</p>
<p>Because many of those administrators have attended several universities, first as undergrads, then as graduate students (often at another university), then as professors (typically at two or three universities), then as executive officers (typically at another university or two) and finally as presidents…all of this over the span of 30 years. Several of their closest friends have taken similar career paths. For example:</p>
<p>LEE BOLLINGER:
BA, University of Orgeon
JD, Columbia University
Professor of Law, University of Michigan
Dean, University of Michigan Law School
Provost, Dartmouth College
President, University of Michigan
President, Columbia University</p>
<p>ROBERT ZIMMER:
BS, Brandeis University
PhD, Harvard University
Professor, United States Naval Academy
Professor, University of California-Berkeley
Professor, Brown University
Professor, University of Chicago
Chairman, University of Chicago Mathematics department
Deputy Provost, University of Chicago
President, University of Chicago</p>
<p>MORTON SCHAPIRO
BS, Hofsra University
PhD, University of Pennsylvania
Professor, Williams College
Chair, University of Southern California Economics department
Dean, University of Southern California School of Letters, Science and the Arts
President, Williams College
President, Northwestern University</p>
<p>AMY GUTMANN
BA, Radcliffe College
PhD, Harvard University
Professor, Princeton University
Provost, Princeton University
President, University of Pennsylvania</p>
<p>RUTH SIMMONS
BA, Dillard University
PhD, Harvard University
Professor, University of Southern California
Professor, Princeton University
Provost, Spelman College
President, Smith College
President, Brown University</p>
<p>CAROLYN MARTIN
BS, College of William and Mary
MS, Middlebury College
PhD, University of Wisconsin
Professor, Cornell University
Provost, Cornell University
President, University of Wisconsin</p>
<p>JEAN-LOU CHAMEAU
BA, France
PhD, Stanford University
Professor, Purdue University
Director, Georgia Institute of Technology Department of Civil Engineering
President, California Institute of Technology</p>
<p>SUSAN HOCKFIELD
BS, University of Rochester
PhD, Georgetown University
Professor, Yale University
Provost, Yale University
President, Massachusetts Institute of Technology</p>
<p>WILLIAM C. POWERS
BA, University of California-Berkeley
PhD, Harvard University
Professor, Southern Methodist University
Professor, University of Michigan
Provost, University of Washington
President, University of Texas-Austin</p>
<p>DAVID LEEBRON
BA, Harvard University
PhD, Harvard University
Professor, University of California-Los Angeles Law School
Professor, Columbia University Law School
Dean, Columbia University Law School
President, Rice University</p>
<p>“Rjk usually brings duke into most discussions b4 any mention of michigan, so I find it hard to believe.”</p>
<p>Go back and read their post history. Duke students (including Lesdiablesbleus) started it before rjk started retaliating.</p>
<p>No different from other high school students who are currently at universities, and have friends and contacts in other universities currently. They are no different from high school counselors who have had the opportunity to counsel thousands of students through the college admission process and continually keep updated on what goes on in colleges.</p>
<p>You have not managed to convince me why the opinion of these administrators supersede theirs or that these administrators have up to date information about what is currently going on in the institutions they previously attended. What you have shown me is, what I already know and have previously stated, that these administrators have affiliations with a maximum of 5-6 universities, but that does not make them the authority to fill out a judgmental survey of the undergraduate program of more than the five schools they have attended. Hence the reason why I do not trust peer rankings.</p>
<p>@NYU</p>
<p>I did consider what I was about to type before I typed it, just because I dont think Michigan is prestigious, doesnt mean the world is going to stop (:</p>
<p>"I did consider what I was about to type before I typed it, just because I dont think… " </p>
<p>Yeah, yeah I got it… ;-)</p>
<p>
Now I’m impressed. You are obviously very well connected in the academic circle. I’m in a position to meet deans as I get invited to joint school alumni activities a lot. I don’t remember meeting more than a dozen deans in the last couple years. Btw, how many is “a large number”? hundreds… thousands?</p>
<p>@scales1994</p>
<p>Yes and obviously if you read what everyone else says both on CC and on any ranking, you’re wrong. Michigan is occasionally ranked above ivies (depending on the ranking). And to assume all top privates are better than top publics is also wrong. Please educate yourself before opining that privates are greater than publics. Check CC “top universities” Michigan along with UC’s are listed instead of other top privates. Why? Because believe it or not, publics are in fact better than privates in some cases. You’ve correctly conceded to the opinion of a somewhat general public without having any knowledge on the basis - clearly. </p>
<p>Before proffering opinions that are not adjunct to the thread in question, please educate yourself properly on the differences between public and private and how that affects the school, since clearly you believe public = bad and private = good simply on the basis of tax dollars. By that proximity, all schools where students receive federal loans for tuition, those schools should be bad as well. And any school doing research should be bad. The point of state schools is (1) to provide those in the state with an opportunity for education and (2) to attempt to keep students and graduate in state. In the case of the top public, they offer an excellent alternative to expensive private schools without losing quality of education necessarily. In fact, state schools are similar to privates in funding if the absolute goal of research is broken down.</p>
<p>For example, a private university is funded in order to do research in X area.</p>
<p>A public university receives research grants as well as state grants. (Typically, state grants are relatively small for top publics) and the purpose of this is to (1) do research and (2) keep the intelligent student population inside the state in order to create a better economy to fund more research. But obviously, this concept has eluded you.</p>
<p>Lastly, you’re 16 and have yet to even experience college or do much research into college/grad school/professional schools. You have a lot to learn.</p>
<p>
How do you define alumni network (both undergrad and grad)? Or is that a bad thing too?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Let me take a bet. You went to UMich or are in one way affiliated with UMich, or you went to UCB?</p>
<p>Its pretty easy to see the pattern and its getting boring. You get support from people who have the same views and convictions. Its like a never ending tag team lol.</p>
<p>I didnt say that Michigan was a bad school, I plan on applying to it for undergrad and med school, I just said I didnt think it was prestigious, give me a break D:</p>
<p>“I didnt say that Michigan was a bad school, I plan on applying to it for undergrad and med school, I just said I didnt think…”</p>
<p>Yeah, yeah I got it. ;-)</p>
<p>):…</p>
<p>The point rjk and I are trying to make is that Michigan is plenty prestigious and considered on equal grounds to many privates. In fact, employers love students from Michigan, just the same as they love students from other top privates. Just because it’s public doesn’t mean it’s not prestigious. The main argument here (so far in this thread anyway) is over UCB being equal to HYPSM. Not over whether or not it’s prestigious. That’s already been agreed upon - the same goes for Michigan. Don’t think little of Michigan and don’t think privates are necessarily better.</p>
<p>In all fairness to scales1994, he is from a state that is far away from Michigan and California. It’s only natural that someone so young is not going to be aware of the reputation of schools that aren’t as famous nationally as HYPSM or some of the better privates he knows down south.</p>