<p>Yea dude lacrosse is awesome, im gonna play this spring, and it’s steady growing in popularity :D</p>
<p>Lacrosse is for losers. Go for fencing.</p>
<p>Joking. I’ve never even seen a lacrosse game before, and lord knows fencing isn’t an audience sport. (It’s incredibly dull most of the time, too.) Though Duke has a magnificent fencing team, in any case.</p>
<p>You need to get into ice hockey scales1994:</p>
<p>[File:The</a> Big Chill 08.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Big_Chill_08.jpg]File:The”>File:The Big Chill 08.jpg - Wikipedia)</p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Big_Chill_08.jpg]File:The](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Big_Chill_08.jpg%5DFile:The){kind=link}
<p>You’ll never see a crowd like that for lacrosse!</p>
<p>DANG! You only see crowds for Lacrosse in the Northeast, has hockey season already started? I’ve always liked hockey, but never had a team to watch, might as well watch Michigan xD</p>
<p>
If you didn’t think your opinion is supreme, why do you question the collective opinion of the more than 2,000 people in the academe? By questioning the result (of the PA) you are questioning that those people are knowledgeable about their peer schools. In fact, you even said they are clueless. You said that yourself. And by saying that those people in the academe are clueless, you are vindicating yourself and telling us that your opinion is supreme. </p>
<p>
Biases exist anywhere. Do you think a normal person doesn’t have his own biases? You are insanely biased towards private schools, for example. I can sense that even if you won’t say it. However, the PA is a collective result of more than a couple of thousands of people who work in the academic world. They are more knowledgeable than most of us are. They are more knowledgeable than you are - in areas pertaining to academics, unless you work in the academe too. The thing about collective opinion is it minimizes or neutralizes any obscure opinions. So, if the Michigan-affiliated prof is bias towards his alma mater school (Michigan in this case), his biases, would be neutralized when the rest of the opinions are collected and equated with the Michigan-affiliated prof. The obscure opinion of one bias person would not say much anymore. However, if the “obscure” opinion of the Michigan-affiliated prof is supported by the vast majority of his peers, then his opinion might not be obscure after all, because his opinion has become the norm. Remember that the definition of normal is when it does confront with the majority. The vast majority of the people in the academe support his view. Therefore, his opinion is normal, acceptable, valid and credible.</p>
<p>
I don’t know what kind of drugs you’re into but the statement of Gerhard Casper is simple and very easy to understand. </p>
<p>the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America - one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen.</p>
<p>According to this former Stanford President, UMich and Cal are CLEARLY among the VERY BEST UNIVERSITIES in AMERICA. Period. I don’t think anyone has to study English just so s/he can understand the said statement.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Duke isn’t very prestigious for me too. I mean, not on HYPSM level. And, for the record, I was accepted to Duke but turned it down for a public university (in England.) </p>
<p>Duke is a great school and I would not say otherwise. But I would never attend Duke if I have an offer from Berkeley, another public university. My interest is computer science and I think that it’s not a well thought-out advice to head to Duke for computer science when you have an offer from Berkeley.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Questioning the veracity and accuracy of a survey does not mean I think my opinion is supreme. Apparently this writer thinks defending the PA score is difficult. He hasnt met you guys yet. Well actually he hasn’t met people with rabbit brains before. The academics at Harvard and Yale who boycott the peer survey, do you want to claim you know more than they do lol:</p>
<p>[Defending</a> the Indefensible: The ‘U.S. News’ Peer Survey Is Not All Bad - Brainstorm - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/defending-the-indefensible-the-us-news-peer-survey-is-not-all-bad/7819]Defending”>http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/defending-the-indefensible-the-us-news-peer-survey-is-not-all-bad/7819)</p>
<p>[News:</a> Reputation Without Rigor - Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/19/rankings]News:”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/19/rankings)</p>
<p>[University</a> continues to send U.S. News peer reviews - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/11/21329/]University”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/11/21329/)</p>
<p>Harvard and Yale have the audacity to question 2000 academes dont they</p>
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</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.chea.org/pdf/2010_IS_The_Future_of_Ranking_Systems_Morse.pdf[/url]”>http://www.chea.org/pdf/2010_IS_The_Future_of_Ranking_Systems_Morse.pdf</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[Williams</a>, Amherst Won’t Fight Top U.S. News Ratings (Update2) - Bloomberg](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>Is it me- or Did everyone on CC get into Duke?</p>
<p>Sefago, the PA is not perfect. However, it is probably the most accurate representation of the general opinion of universities among academics. Some value such an opinion, others do not. </p>
<p>The main issue I have with the PA is that it is not transparent. It should be known how each president and dean votes. However, I do believe that outliers are removed, so that smoothens things a little, and I would not be surprise if for every vote biased in favor of, there is one biased in favor against, which should cancel things out nicely.</p>
<p>Another issue I have with the PA is that it does not force voters to rate only universities they are truly familiar with. I think the voting system should limit each voter to 25 institutions. </p>
<p>At any rate, I agree that the PA needs some serious changes, but like I said, it is the best we have for now.</p>
<p>
Michigan is not better than UVA rjk. It’s social cachet exceeds that of Michigan by far but Michigan’s academics are slightly better so I would call it a draw.</p>
<p>sefago, rabbit brain… rat brain… whatever…, </p>
<p>The presidents of Harvard, Yale and Stanford have recently boycotted the survey because they think there was an anomaly, NOT because they think Berkeley and Michigan have been getting high ratings. Like i said, biases are something that can’t be avoided, more so, eradicated in a subjective poll. But at the end of the day, “obscure” ratings (biases and otherwise) are neutralized when all the more than 2 thousand respondents view are counted in. At end of the day, HYPSMC lead the pact. Berkeley closely followed. And so on. That’s a collective view of more than 2 thousand people (who work in the academe) versus you. I think it’s a no-brainer which view is more credible. Don’t you agree? LOL</p>
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</p>
<p>Ok, I dont think I have argued otherwise. I have said- please carefully pay attention- that Duke is better than Michigan. I did not say, in the eyes of academics that Duke is better than Michigan. I have attacked the PA rankings because UMich people cite it as evidence for the strength of academics of their school and as evidence that they are peers of Duke. As, I have proven countless time this is not so. It is impossible for anyone to judge more than 1 university and its true academic strength. They have to make a reputational survey, but reputation is not always =academics.</p>
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</p>
<p>Alexandre to be realistic it is impossible for anyone to have sufficient information to judge more than 1 university in a realistic scenario. I am unable to accurately judge programs in my former undergrad despite being very very observant. Are you sure the president of Michigan can name at least five faculty in each of the departments at UMich? Can he vouch for the teaching commitment of the instructors? Can he state the curriculum of each field in his school, and the minors and concentrations? Well if he can he must have a formidable memory. Now move on can he do that for Harvard? Can he name the faculty and the programs available at Harvard? Can he judge the curriculum for these schools? Can he do that for 25 other schools? No he cannot, but if he was given a bubble to fill in, would he claim to know nothing about Harvard? Or would he fill in the bubble based on the reputation of the school, a reputation based on research excellence?</p>
<p>To ask anyone to judge 25 universities and their overall undergraduate programs is asking for way too much. Such a request is not possible. One has to judge by reputation which emanates from research excellence which is what academia is all about anyways.</p>
<p>but that isn’t our focus is it? The argument is about undergraduate programs</p>
<p>“It’s social cachet exceeds that of Michigan by far but Michigan’s academics are slightly better so I would call it a draw”</p>
<p>LDB, I am not sure what you mean by “social cachet”. Assuming it is what I think it is, I would say “social cachet” is determined by locale. In most parts of the East Coast, UVa is indeed more recognized and respected than Michigan. NYC is the only exception, because Michigan has long had very strong ties to it. In NYC, I would say UVa and Michigan are both extremely well regarded. In the Midwest and the West Coast, I think Michigan has the edge over UVa.</p>
<p>Academically, they are roughly equal for undergraduate education, but Michigan has a clear edge in terms of overall academics. </p>
<p>In terms of grouping, I think Michigan’s academic strength powers it into group 2 while UVa remains in group 3. However, those two universities are amazing, and should someone choose to place them together in group 3, that works too. Only HYPSM are definitely in group 1 and only Caltch, Cal, Chicago and Columbia are definitely in group 2. Other schools in group 2 can easily be bumped to group 3 for whatever reason depending on the criteria one wishes to use to determine groupings.</p>
<p>Berkeley has amazing academics for sure, but are the professors adequately transmitting their world-class academic knowledge to their undergraduates? If so, then why do schools like Dartmouth who are not in the same league as Berkeley in departmental rankings have graduates who make more money, win more prestigious British fellowships and go to the top medical/law/business schools at much higher rates?</p>
<p>The problem with this debate is we are constricting this discussion only to focus on the pure academic facets on an institution like its faculty/department strength rather than other factors like selectivity, undergraduate support system, advising, financial resources, opportunities for grants/study abroad, career services, reputation among employers/graduate school adcoms, social cachet of the college brand name, etc.</p>
<p>In all those areas, Duke is better than Berkeley. If it wasn’t true, then the former wouldn’t have more National Merit Scholars, Rhodes/Marshall/Goldwater/Truman scholars, a lower acceptance rate, higher placement rates into graduate schools/professional schools/Wall Street firms, greater PhD production, etc. etc.</p>
<p>
I don’t know how well-versed you are in American history Alexandre but UVA was founded by one of this nation’s Founding Fathers and Third President, Thomas Jefferson, and is the only university in the United States to be designated as an UNESCO World Heritage Site, an honor it shares with Jefferson’s estate Monticello. It is also the first university in the US to start teaching programs like philosophy and its SEAS was the first engineering school to be established in the country. It’s Board of Visitors has included three American Presidents: James Madison, Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe.</p>
<p>The UVA brand name is very powerful and it is very well-regarded among the social, cultural and business elite of this country. That’s what I mean by “social cacet”.</p>
<p>Also, how about we use The Ivy Plus Society as a litmus test to measure “social prestige”.</p>
<p>"The Ivy Plus Society (TIPS) produces social networking events for young alumni of a select group of schools, with the aim of creating a community of talented, dynamic individuals.</p>
<p>The chance to meet incredible people was one of the best aspects of the schools we were privileged to attend. TIPS events extend those opportunities beyond the iron gates of our alma maters.</p>
<p>The Ivy Plus Society recognizes the need to set the roof on fire and raise a glass with friends, new and old. So we aim to bring you parties brimming with smart, sexy fun at the best venues in town. Our philosophy: If you are going to go out, might as well head somewhere fabulous!"</p>
<p>[The</a> Ivy Plus Society](<a href=“http://www.ivyplussociety.org/about.html]The”>http://www.ivyplussociety.org/about.html)
Where is Michigan undergrad Alex? UVA and UCB are both represented at least for Public Schools. To add insult to injury, ALL THREE of Michigan’s professional schools (law, business, medicine) are included on the “Guest List”. This means that the organizers of TIPS PURPOSEFULLY excluded Michigan undergrad from their membership schools.</p>
<p>The Yale alum Jennifer Anderson who created this social organization didn’t want Michigan undergrad alums to come to her private soirees and gatherings because UM is not considered particularly elite at the undergraduate level. This is what I mean when I say Michigan lacks “social cachet”. It just isn’t a very influential brand name in American society unless you went to Business, Law or Medical school there.</p>
<p>Why is every thread on CC about Duke, UMich, Berkeley, and HYPSM?</p>
<p>Geez. You people have NO LIVES. Please go read THE GAME by Neil Strauss so you all might be inspired to do something other than bickering about things that have ZERO meaning in life.</p>
<p>Also to hopefully end things:
- Most people don’t care about rankings or college prestige because most people aren’t from such top schools
- Students in America who are obsessed with getting into a good college generally consider HYPSM > Columbia, Duke, Penn, Chicago > UMich, UVA, Emory, WUSTL, etc. Check the number of students who have enrolled in these universities from Phillips Exeter, Andover, Harker, Westminister Schools, etc.
It’s GENERALLY understood. So shut up yall and go develop some social skills for your own good. - I’ve already got my answer for this thread. So leave it alone.</p>
<p>
No one in the real world separates schools like Penn or Duke from HYPSM like you do Alexandre.</p>
<p>[MIT</a>, Duke Early Applications Rise as Jobs Spur Move (Update1) - Bloomberg.com](<a href=“http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a538ohN5eI7c]MIT”>http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a538ohN5eI7c)
[Early</a> Applicants Besiege MIT, Penn as Economy Steers Choices](<a href=“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fg%2Fa%2F2010%2F12%2F13%2Fbloomberg1376-LDDDS407SXKX01-10J82FSLGE9NRE84EF05HJ9K8K.DTL]Early”>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fg%2Fa%2F2010%2F12%2F13%2Fbloomberg1376-LDDDS407SXKX01-10J82FSLGE9NRE84EF05HJ9K8K.DTL)</p>
<p>The major news outlets don’t seem to parse between the top private schools like you do.</p>
<p>I can guess how some will be celebrating their christmas hehe</p>
<p>I have a happy life, so don’t worry. CC entertains me, but it does not dominate my social life. not at all. having said that, i’d like to greet everyone in advance a merry xmas and a prosperous new year!</p>
<p>
I think so. </p>
<p>Berkeley still produces some of the most talented individuals and they are products of those professors you think so lowly about. Berkeley is still top 10 undergrad feeder school to Yale and Harvard Law schools, Harvard MBA or some of the most coveted jobs in banking or finance, among others. Berkeley grads compete with the best grads of the best private schools. </p>
<p>
Because Dartmouth is just extraordinary just like Berkeley is extraordinary when it comes to research. Dartmouth’s data even surpass those of HYPSM’s. If you’ll rank the schools solely based on alumni salary scale, Dartmouth would rank # 1, according to Forbes. However, when other important factors are considered, Dartmouth would tail HYPSM a bit. It is still a great school but would not become on par with HYPSM anymore. Plus the fact that it is much smaller to Cal makes its grads easier to track down and manage. Nevertheless, Cal isn’t shabby when it comes to graduate salary scale. In fact, it has outranked 3 Ivies in this area. Cal-Haas has now a better/higher salary scale than Dartmouth-Tuck has for MBA grads. The tow are said to have identical class sizes.</p>
<p>Post-MBA salary ($)
Berkeley - 108,428
Dartmouth - 105,198 </p>
<p>[Which</a> MBA? | University of California at Berkeley?Haas School of Business](<a href=“http://www.economist.com/whichmba/2010/uc-berkeley-haas-school-of-business]Which”>http://www.economist.com/whichmba/2010/uc-berkeley-haas-school-of-business)
[Which</a> MBA? | Dartmouth College?Tuck School of Business](<a href=“http://www.economist.com/whichmba/2010/dartmouth-college-tuck-school-of-business]Which”>http://www.economist.com/whichmba/2010/dartmouth-college-tuck-school-of-business)</p>