BoCo costs 70K/yr. and is known for not giving much scholarship $. This is a huge factor for most families in deciding whether to apply/attend. (Bear in mind, the Median US HHold income last year was $52K!). Are we to believe price is not a factor in the “depth of the large national talent pool” these schools purportedly attract? I would say they continue to attract those with money and talent. But I question wether they continue to draw the rest of the talent pool. Which is a considerable portion of the talent out there in any given year!
Supply/demand/affordability are huge considerations in this day and age where we no longer have people taking out Home Equity Loans to finance lifestyles that are not affordable. Student loans too have become increasingly expensive. (Largely due to a huge default rate). Many have seen their assets shrink either through investment loss or real estate depreciation. As recent as a couple of years back, interest rates for unsubsidized parent loans were below 4%. Now, they are close to 7% or 8% — nearly double! These loans are expensive by industry standards! I have credit cards with lower interest rates than the student loans I have been offered for my son, a recent graduate. And these gov’t sponsored loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy.
It is not financially sound to pay more for college tutition per year than you earn, esp. when there are viable alternatives. The increasing numbers of affordable, quality MT programs have really changed the landscape.
I do not believe it is necessarily more difficult to be admitted to BoCo than Viterbo. Not sure about Wagner because that is a BA program with a larger class.
Colleges may cost more than than did ten years ago, of course. But even 10 years ago, certain colleges were very expensive and more than the cost of other colleges. The same idea still applied to the situation relative to what people earned ten years ago. Everything has gone up and up and college tuition is huge. No doubt about it. But it was still huge relatively speaking even ten years ago at certain colleges. The cost factor was there then and it is there now too. People apply to these schools who qualify for need based aid. We did. I’m still paying off my the loans for both my kids’ educations. Believe me, I understand this point. My financial situation has also changed in recent years and I earn less than one year’s tuition/room/board at some of these schools. Way less.
However, applications are rising for these expensive competitive colleges for MT, as they are for very expensive non-MT colleges. Some of the most competitive colleges in the country have extremely low acceptance rates and high tuitions and don’t offer merit aid (though tend to offer good need-based aid). Here’s an example…Columbia University is one of the five most expensive colleges in the country (it costs over $63K). It’s acceptance rate is extremely low (less than 7%) and gets lower every year as the number of applicants has risen. They give need-based aid, but no merit aid.
I do believe that BoCo has a similar acceptance rate to Viterbo even though it is a bigger program and I believe its talent pool runs deeper. For one thing, I think it is more known in the first place. Here’s another example, NYU/Tisch is much bigger than SUNY Buffalo’s MT program and I venture to say it is much harder to get into Tisch than SUNY Buffalo for MT, even though Tisch accepts more freshmen for MT. Tisch has way more applicants and draws an international talent pool and SUNY Buffalo has less applicants and draws from more of a regional pool. If I were advising a student building a college list of BFA in MT programs and putting the academic odds aside (which I never do, by the way), I would put NYU or BoCo on the more difficult artistic odds range than SUNY Buffalo, or for example, Millikin. But it is not an exact science when it comes to MT admissions. CMU is not a large program but it is very expensive and they have a ton of applicants.
As a Viterbo student, I agree with Soozie on her points that Viterbo is probably a little less artistically selective (though that doesn’t keep the program from staying small–the department aims to admit about 4-5 of each gender every year, and no MT class in the department is bigger than 8 at the moment) and draws from a more regional talent pool (probably 75% of the people in the theatre department, including those in majors other than MT, are from Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, or Iowa).
This thread actually reminds me of the “Transformed, fine-tuned, or hardly changed” thread, wherein it was posited a few years back that some schools will accept classes of kids who are nearly ready to be competitive professionally. Now, I don’t pretend to speak for my classmates or anyone else in my program, but knowing my own talent, I don’t believe I would have been a competitive applicant for CMU, CCM, UMich, etc. When I was growing up in Toronto, I was part of some of the most selective youth theatre and community productions in the city, but I was NEVER the most talented person in the room. My peers that were at a slightly different level than I was last year or two years ago went on to MT programs at NYU, BoCo, Sheridan (the top MT program in Canada), and top acting and classical voice programs in Canada (full disclosure: I did not apply to any of the schools I’ve mentioned so far in this post). However, I knew from the fact that I kept getting cast alongside these people who did go on to “top” schools that I could be competitive in musical theatre, I just needed a little longer to “cook” than my peers. I ended up at Viterbo because (in my opinion–I don’t intend to say that this is necessarily how Viterbo selects its incoming freshman class), they evaluated me pretty holistically and saw my drive and potential, and were not just evaluating me on basis of my talent–because I know I haven’t reached my full capabilities yet. Now, that’s not to say other schools don’t look holistically at their applicants, but I think as the MT applicant pool gets larger and more applicants seek coaching of all sorts prior to applying, it can be harder for someone who isn’t as “polished” to get their foot in the door at more well-known programs, just because those programs do have a deeper audition pool, and could fill their classes many times over with applicants who have tippy-top talents right out of high school. Like I said, I can only speak for myself with regards to Viterbo being less selective. We have Jimmy Award finalists in this department. But I certainly feel like they’ve taken a chance on me, and as I start my second semester here, I can already feel it paying off. I compared a video of my final vocal jury from last semester to my prescreen video from my audition cycle, and the difference astounds me. So for what that’s worth…
CanadianMTgirl…that is a very mature post. I admire you so much (for all your posts, not just this one). I imagine the talent at Viterbo to be VERY high. So, I bet the graduates from the program can rival any program! But as you say, the talent pool of applicants is more of a regional one at the moment. There is high talent in that pool. There just likely isn’t the greater numbers in the depth of the pool than a school with lots of applicants like CMU might have from around the country. That’s what makes the odds a bit better. But there is high talent in every pool. Viterbo saw what you had to offer and you will do great things! I’m glad you are still on the forum to given insights into this program so more will know of it.
Columbia College Chicago accepts all applicants for their BA program. You have to audition for the BFA, but from what I understand, it’s not too selective.
A lot of the schools that have non-audition BAs with an audition-only BFA are not as selective. Catawba’s one of those.
Reputation/program quality is also a factor. CMU is not a large program. But it is is exclusive. No doubt about it. Almost everyone invited to attend CMU, goes to CMU. Same with Michigan. Regardless of Price. The same is not nearly as true however of BOCO or NYU. Just look at the background threads. Very common to have an NYU or Boco acceptance but choose Montclair, or OCU, or Wright State.
Many MTs admitted to these schools chose other, less expensive schools when given the choice. And NYU’s numbers are also somewhat skewed in that they take applicants for both acting and MT, and then assign where they see fit, but basically count them in both categories.
I think @vvnstar in post #74 did as good a job as ever I have seen in summarizing the challenges in assessing odds and selectivity.
NYU and BoCo still to this day are schools that people apply to “just in case” even knowing that they won’t be able to go unless they get $$ to go. Some of the other schools mentioned are not “just in case” schools. The reason schools like NYU and BoCo still claim that status is because somewhere in the heart of hearts of the applicants, they see them as schools to aspire to. Trend, history? Who knows but that is what happens so it just is what it is. I’m not sure how often that happens with some of the other schools mentioned and that doesn’t mean they are not wonderful schools. In terms of numbers though… even if NYU, BoCo, (CMU, Northwestern and any other really expensive school) aspirants are just that, aspirants who cannot afford it, it ups the audition pool and thus the competitive landscape. Basic math.
@transmom, NYU’s numbers are not skewed by taking applicants for both acting and MT. If you are applying for MT, your audition includes song, dance and monologue as well as an interview. If you are just applying to act, it doesn’t. In short, you are putting yourself into the pool saying you want to first be considered for the MT studio. There are many of VERY talented MT applicants that end up in acting studios for the first two years of primary studio training and do well there. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t have their initial eye on the MT studio and had that as their first choice. They can and should count them as MT candidates because that was in fact, what they were at audition point. As far as I know, there is no such thing as applying to be an actor and then just saying, “hey, if you don’t like me for straight acting… I’ll sing and dance for you.”
Yes, it is true, that for those who have to weigh cost and financial aid packages, may turn down a more expensive school like NYU or BoCo for a less expensive one like Montclair or Wright State. However, we weren’t talking about who enrolls. We were talking about acceptance rates and being admitted. I happen to think it is harder to be admitted to NYU or BoCo than Wright State, even though Wright State’s program is smaller and costs less.
I don’t fully agree with this statement. Acting applicants are not considered MT applicants. They do not sing or dance at auditions. They are only considered for Acting studios. MT applicants can state that they only will consider the MT studio or can be considered for an Acting studio as well. But there is a sum total of MT applicants (these are the ones TRYING for the MT studio and who sing and dance, as well as act, at the auditions). The acceptance rate for MT at Tisch is LOWER than for ACTING at Tisch.
Keep in mind, as well, that the REAL cost of ANY college is not necessarily the sticker price. For my D, while NYU was the most expensive ticket price of the 8 BFA schools she applied to, once we looked at the FA packages offered to her at 7 schools, NYU came in cheaper than all of them due to the scholarships she received from them. So, that is but one mere example. You have to look at what it costs AFTER need and/or merit aid, if you get any, to determine final cost.
By the way, Penn State offered the lowest FA package of all my D’s schools and so while it is a public university, it wasn’t necessarily cheaper in the end than the private schools she was admitted to.
I also think one of the reasons why Viterbo doesn’t have a true cross-country applicant pool (although let me interject and say that we have THREE international students in MT currently–the joke is that the department always has to have a Canadian! So clearly the department is doing SOMETHING to draw students in from afar ) is that this program doesn’t have a ton of graduates who move to NYC, at least not in terms of the mass migration that often happens with outgoing senior classes in other programs. Viterbo certainly has alums who work on Broadway and in NYC and its environs, but they are far outnumbered by the alums who have found work in Chicago, Minneapolis, etc (which is logical, given where this program pulls and where it’s located). As someone who has been primarily interested in making a career in one of the more “regional theatre” markets, that was certainly a factor that went into my choosing Viterbo. But if a prospective student measures the reputation of a program by the number of alums it has working in the NYC area (which is fine–for some people, that’s their career goal), they could miss out on a program like Viterbo entirely.
Here is an old post, (2008) but may contain some relevant data. Bear in mind that numbers may be anecdotal rather than hard facts
Baldwin-Wallace (BM MT) 300/12-14 (accept 20)
BOCO (BFA MT) 1000/40 (accept 57)
CCM (BFA MT) 822/24 (accept 30)
CMU 1000/28 (BFA Acting: 16, MT: 12)
Elon (BFA MT) 400/20 (accept 24)
FSU (BFA/BM MT) 240/12
Hartt (BFA MT) 400/25 (accept 60)
Illinois Wesleyan (BFA MT) 140/8 (accept 17) MT only.
Indiana (BFA MT) 315/10 (accept 12-15)
Ithaca (BFA MT) 500/12 (accept 32)*
JMU (BA MT) 100/9 freshman; 2 transfers (accepted 18 freshman; 2 transfers) (BA stats)
Michigan (BFA MT) 450/22 (650 applicants-450 academically eligible)
Montclair (BFA MT) 400/18
North Carolina School of the Arts (BFA Acting) 900/20 male 10 female
NYU Steinhardt (BM in VP) 275/25–accept 50 to yield 25 (approx. 15 are MT, 10 classical)
NYU Tisch (BFA) 2300/350 (all studios); approx. 1000+/64 (accept 75) for CAP21
OU(BFA Acting) 240/24
Otterbein (BFA MT) 340/8 (accept 10?)
Pace (BFA MT) 490/25 (30 acceptance offers)
Penn State (BFA MT) 500/12 (18 accepted to yield 12)
SUNY Purchase (BFA acting) 1200/22
Syracuse (BFA MT)800/30 (accept 60)
TCU 84/10(MT) 10(Acting) accept(20MT, 20 Act)
UArts (BFA MT) 600/22 (50 accept)
UCLA ( BA MT) 300/16 has no wait list
UIC 205/32 (16 BFA Acting) (16 BA acting)
USC (BFA Acting) 500 (accept 26 to 30 to yield 20 - as of 4/24 spots were committed for 9 male and 10 female), has no wait list
Webster (BFA MT) 450/25-28 (accept 50 Acting and MT)
I have included the percentages of students accepted-schools are MT unless otherwise noted. I did not include UCLA until we get an idea of how many kids auditioned for the MT program.
BW 6.7%
BoCo 5.7%
CCM 3.65%
CMU(acting and MT) 2.8%
Elon 6.0%
FSU 5%
Hartt 15%
Indiana 4.8%
Ithaca 6.4%
JMU 20%
NCSA 3.3%
OU (acting) 10%
Pace 6.1%
Steinhardt (MT and classical) 18%
Tisch CAP 21 6%
Tisch All Studios(Acting and CAP21) 15%
Otterbein 2.9%
PSU 3.6%
Syracuse 7.5%
UArts 8.3%
USC (acting) 6%
Btw @soozievt, the odds for being accepted for acting as a whole may be greater than MT- but the odds at any individual studio would not be greater. My D’s studio, which was her top choice for NYU, took fewer people than MT- so I would say my D overcame greater odds, not lesser. (She was asked about studio preference at her interview, they spent a great deal of time talking about it)
In my line of work as a college counselor, I often see students (and parents) want to apply to “name” schools they have heard of or are well known, even if they don’t have the grades, talent, or money to attend. They seem to put these schools on their list anyway. With non-MT applicants, for instance, there are many who want to apply to Harvard who don’t stand a chance to get in academically and don’t qualify for need based aid (there is no merit aid at the Ivies) and apply anyhow. For MT applicants, I have run into numerous applicants who put NYU on their list who really do not stand a chance of getting in. They want to apply and do so in droves. Certain schools have been around for a long while and become known and there are those who select colleges that way regardless of their qualifications to be admitted or ability to pay. Sad, but true!
@CanadianMTgirl…you are an amazing young woman and an astute post writer. Thank you so much for your refreshing, honest and heartfelt posts! I whole-heartedly respect your opinions. Go V-Hawks! And best of luck wherever your dreams may find you!
I had always said that Otterbein was the most difficult program to get into…looks like I was right. If you are looking at popularity it seems NYU wins that category.
First, I just want to say, though I am sure I said it at some point on this thread or another thread at some point, the odds of being admitted to almost every BFA in MT program in the country are very low…typically under 10%. So, they are all very selective and whether 5% or 9% get admitted, it is still low and not worth too much quibbling. That’s why it is important to have non-audition schools on the list too!
I understand your point about an individual studio and yes, studio preferences may be discussed in the audition/interview (my kid gave her first, second, and third choice studios, and was offered her first choice which was MT, which at the time was the CAP21 studio)…and so yes, some acting studios at Tisch are very small! Still, I was referring earlier to the OVERALL rate for ACTING at Tisch (any studio) compared to the rate of admission for the MT program. The acceptance rate to get in for Acting is higher than for MT at Tisch, but yes, certain acting studios have more difficult odds than other other studios at Tisch.
Great post from above from @CanadianMTgirl above whom I think nails it.
I think NYU and BoCo applicants need a come to J__ meeting about their costs. They are VERY expensive. VERY VERY and VERY. And neither school is famous for being generous about aid. (CMU??? Are you??? Because you are VERY expensive too.) Own it. Applicants should wade in knowing it. Yes there are paths to aid at both Boco and NYU. Soozie speaks about her daughter’s experience 10 years ago. But honestly, these schools today are notorious for being not easy with showing the love with the money.
Sorry to say that DOESN’T mean they are less competitive. When you are talking a small number of admits in the universe of talent you have to know that there simply are applicants with real talent who might be able to smoke you and can also pay for those seats. That’s just a thing. Be mad but be mad for the right reasons. It’s basic supply and demand at work in a world where the supply far exceeds demand.
So you get into BoCo or NYU or the like and are told by the math that you have an expected family contribution (EFC) of paying for the whole darn thing. You do know that’s a formula right? It’s not something to be mad about and it’s also not something to think necessarily changes the applicant pool. If this was math result you feared, why did you apply in the first place? So many do anyway.
It might change who decides to suck it up and pay for these very expensive schools but it doesn’t mean the people who suck it up were not your competitive nightmare in many other schools you also applied to and did or did not get into. The MT field is overpopulated with redundant talent. It’s not a simple equation. Sorry if that sounds awful and a bit like tough love. There isn’t currently a mechanism to make it really level but there are many many far less expensive schools where the training is so good and the cost is a bargain. That is the equalizer and why you do see people with those creds on Broadway playbills along side the usual and very expensive usual suspect schools.
Maybe if we took the current lists from the last two years class numbers, and added the application numbers as reported by the schools at auditions, we could come up with some sort of current admit rate?
) is that this program doesn’t have a ton of graduates who move to NYC, at least not in terms of the mass migration that often happens with outgoing senior classes in other programs. Viterbo certainly has alums who work on Broadway and in NYC and its environs, but they are far outnumbered by the alums who have found work in Chicago, Minneapolis, etc (which is logical, given where this program pulls and where it’s located). As someone who has been primarily interested in making a career in one of the more “regional theatre” markets, that was certainly a factor that went into my choosing Viterbo. But if a prospective student measures the reputation of a program by the number of alums it has working in the NYC area (which is fine–for some people, that’s their career goal), they could miss out on a program like Viterbo entirely.