<p>Last night a response from SuperJad, a student from Rose Hulman, got me a little concerned. He indicated that he went to rose for computer science/engineering and was now very disappointed and switched fields while saying Rose is still a great engineering college. WOW! US news ranks Rose #1 for computer engineering (hardware things i believe). So I asked him (I'm waiting for his response) and now YOU, what questions should a HS student ask to 1) evaluate a university's department or college 2) differentiate college programs (preferably regarding computers or engineering) and 3) to whom? admissions? alumni? current students? Basically, I'm looking for the answer to the question "If I knew what I now know I would have asked . . . to . . . " hope this thread helps your HS S or D as well.</p>
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<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>what questions should a HS student ask to 1) evaluate a university's department or college 2) differentiate college programs (preferably regarding computers or engineering) and 3) to whom? admissions? alumni? current students? Basically, I'm looking for the answer to the question "If I knew what I now know I would have asked . . . to . . . " <<<</p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
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<p>I'm getting ready to leave for an overnight visit, so I'm glad I'm home and saw this post before taking off.</p>
<p>This is one of THE most practical -- and important -- questions I have ever seen asked here on CC (insofar as it applies to students who know what they want to major in) and it is one I pursued in making my application choices.</p>
<p>I can't answer for Rose Hulman and/or computer engineering specifically, but I can tell you about some of the steps I took to compare and ascertain the quality of the department(s) for my own intended major (which I'm sorry, but I don't care to divulge here yet -- at least not until I know where I'm accepted):</p>
<p>1) (a) Obviously, researching the department on-line is a good place to start. While quantity does not necessarily equate to quality, the number of full-time dedicated faculty in a particular department is an important consideration, as are the respective experience, educational and research backgrounds of the faculty. (b) The scope and quantity of courses: Besides just looking up the courses in the course catelogue, try to delve beyond course titles to cull a better idea about what the courses really cover, i.e., course descriptions, etc. If the school has a student-review website to consult, all the better. (c) How many students are majors and how many are minors in the department?</p>
<p>2) How many of the department's students (majors) go on to seek higher degrees? </p>
<p>3) What is the acceptance rate to graduate school? What level of graduate schools?</p>
<p>4) Does the school have a good job placement office which does a good job of placing graduates of the department? Do most graduates get jobs right away? See studentsreview.com reviews to see if any reviews are available from anyone in the same or similar major -- also for other relevant info.</p>
<p>5) Internships: Does the department offer them within the department and have relationships with companies to place students into useful internships?</p>
<p>6) Does the school have a graduate program in your specific field of interest? The higher the level of the graduate program (i.e., through Ph.D) the better, but if they don't have a graduate program (like many LACs) this needs to be evaluated differently. If they do have a graduate program how competitive is it to get into? The size of the graduate program and the faculty's areas of interest are important factors to be considered and compared. Yes, even though you're only looking at undergrad at this point, it helps to get an idea of how committed the school is to a particular area and researching the graduate aspects can give you a clearer idea about the strength of the undergrad department.</p>
<p>Who to ask what? First, I'd do as much independent research as possible: you should be able to learn a lot if you use a critical eye. Any outstanding questions can be addressed to your interviewer, admissions, the department itself, current students, alumni etc., as appropriate.</p>
<p>Hope this helps somewhat.</p>
<p>Sdavis,</p>
<p>I think there are special considerations for highly demanding technical majors at strong programs that can't be learned just by asking questions. </p>
<p>Students rarely know exactly what field they are a fit for when entering college. But in fields such as engineering, the hard sciences, pre-med, etc. there is the added burden of doing poorly or having to struggle mightily to do ok. Some students do not learn till college that they are not suited for field X and that learning process is made worse if their grades are poor. But sometimes one can only learn this through direct experience.</p>
<p>There is also a matching issue. In subjects with easy grading/high grade inflation, it pays to go to a higher ranked school than you "should" be accepted to. In tough fields with tough grading, being overplaced is no favor.</p>
<p>So the one thing I would ask if my child were entering the sciences, math, premed or serious economics programs is: How does my child's aptitude match up with that of the target school? How likely is my kid going to stick it out if he's only average in the pool and the going gets rough?</p>
<p>I teach at a very demanding university that ranks highly in US News and every year I see kids who are devastated when they get a C or even a B- in class. They were straight A HS students, worked their buns off, and still sometimes do poorly in my class. Some kids handle this well and then improve. Others can't. Or won't.</p>
<p>What kind of person is your child? Does he/she thrive in challenging environments where he/she is barely average? Would the kid be happier being a big fish in a medium sized pond?</p>
<p>I think that not enough parents take these things into consideration.</p>
<p>I got lots of good advice on this thread:</p>
<p>sdavis, I'd take the word of any one student (whether a booster or regretful of their choice) with a few grains of salt. No matter what college you name, you can find kids delighted with how things turned out or thinking things aren't right. What you need is to talk to several kids and get a feeling for the consensus. One kid says profs are unapproachable it may be his personality or his profs; a bunch of kids say this and its telling you something.</p>
<p>If your kid can visit for an overnite stay that's the best way to inquire. If not, ask the school if they can put you in touch with a few kids from your area to meet with when they're home for winter break, take a look at live-journal entries, read the student newspaper online (esp. letters), etc.</p>
<p>Phew! hope your visit went well. Thanks for the detailed suggestions. I hope we get more input especially from students -in computer science
Not quite old: Thanks for your wisdom. are there any questions that you would want your son to ask of a student or dean to regarding a computer science dept? Maybe with regards to graduation statistics or placements? Seems like every college has a spin that look great.
weenie: what a name, anyway your link was very good.
mikemac; we will try an overnight or 3 in the spring once he gets accepted. my son is very shy compared to me, and doesn't ask to many "probing" questions. this worries me to a degree but that's the parent in me.</p>
<p>to anyone else, what are some great questions you heard on the campus tours? can you help us sort through their placement stats. </p>
<p>engineering/computer science students: what questions would you ask nowto help evaluate the program/class offerings?</p>
<p>sdavis,</p>
<p>You're welcome. I would not be too concerned about computer science per se. All good cs programs will be happy to show off where their students went to for grad school or what jobs they got. But you need to make sure that your son has enough of a strong background so that if he doesn't choose cs, that he will still do well. Ask what percentage of CS majors at the start switch to other fields later. Then ask how well these students did also.</p>
<p>Moreover, the world is too variable to rely on majors and professions staying the same. Good training and lots of math will prepare your son for most scientific and engineering jobs no matter what happens.</p>
<p>Many of my old school mates studied physics or math, yet few are physicists. Several became important figures in the CS academic and industrial world. Yet many never took more than one or two cs classes. Good technical training and good classmates count most of all.</p>
<p>My own son is just entering high school and I am only a few years from confronting similar questions in my own house.</p>
<p>"engineering/computer science students: what questions would you ask nowto help evaluate the program/class offerings?"</p>
<p>I would ask adminstrators:
-How much of the assignment load is group work and how much is individual?
-How accessible is the prof? the TAs?
-These programs are rigorous, and the homework heavy. -What kind of support network exists to help these students manage this kind of load, especially in the first year?
-What is your attrition rate to other, less demanding majors?
-do students have 24 hour access to the engineering/comp sci buildings? the labs?
- give me some concrete examples of what recently graduated students have done with this degree.</p>
<p>Also, be sure to verify that the school is accredited by the American Board of Engineering Training (ABET) for the specific type of engineering program you plan to undertake (i.e., bio-engineering, computer engineering, etc.) Some schools are only ABET accredited for overall engineering, not specialties, which is fine if you want a general engineering degree, but not so fine if you want an engineering program in a specialty area. ABET does also accredit computer science programs (which are different from computer ENGINEERING - be sure to understand the differences). ABET accreditation is a good sign that the school has met industry standards for what engineering grads need to know. The only school that I would recommend without ABET accreditation is Olin in Mass (their ABET accreditation is underway, but they are only a few years old so it is not yet complete.)</p>
<p>ABET has a searchable database of accredited programs, including a breakdown by engineering specialty, at their website: <a href="http://www.abet.org%5B/url%5D">www.abet.org</a></p>
<p>Here is one easy, sure-fire way to judge the quality of the department: Go to university's website, click on Academics (or departments or whatever), go to the Computer Science Dept, go to the faculty listings, then check out the research interests of the faculty and the professors' websites.</p>
<p>Just to see what it can show you, do this for Rose-Hulman, then do it for Carnegie-Mellon. This is a little unfair comparison between these two schools because the highest degree at Rose is a Master's degree vs. the PhD at CMU. But if you are looking for rigor, you'll want - even as an undergrad - a school that has a PhD program. Rose will train you for a job. CMU will train you to be a professor at Rose.</p>
<p>thank you for the suggestions and comments, they are wonderful and insightful. keep them coming!</p>
<p>I am hoping to hear from more CC students and faculty members regarding my original prompt AND now ask this:</p>
<p>What is the benefit to going to a college, for the rigorous engineering/CS vs. going to the LAC, majoring in CS or a math or science? Are the opportunities upon graduation greater with the engineering degree or bachelors degree in a computer field?</p>
<p>This isn't a question but a comment.
Be sure your child is well prepared for the rigor of the program. He/she really has to have good math and physics grades before embarking on this course. My son would never have tried being a engineering major if it wasn't for all the extra math, honors and AP 's in these areas.And it has paid off as he is pulling his own while many kids are changing majors and failing out. (actually taking W's and leaving)</p>
<p>"while many kids are changing majors and failing out"</p>
<p>At my engineering school, we used to call an Engineering major:
"Pre-Business".</p>
<p>Let me disagree slightly with Carolyn. I don't think accreditation in a subspecialty is all that important. It can help -- especially with the first job or if you're targeting a specific company or local industry. But in my view all undergrad engineering majors are general majors with a couple extra classes thrown in. The engineers at my U (I don't teach engineering) would rather take a student into our PhD program from a rigorous program in an entirely different specialty than someone with precise training but with a weaker/less rigorous undergrad record. At least in academia, what matters is how much math you've had, how rigorous your science classes were, what specific projects you've accomplished as an undergrad (including but not limited to research) and whom you've worked with.</p>
<p>BTW, where I went to college, students having a rough time mostly switched to engineering as the "easier" major. :)</p>
<p>Digmedia,
I'm a little confused about your comment. Rose will train you for a job. CMU will train you to be a professor at Rose.</p>
<p>For the mast majority of people who go into engineering, they want to be trained to get a job. In engineering, a job in many cases pays more than being a professor. Practical engineering is a very valuable asset and Rose Hulman does a great job of preparing engineers to succeed in the workplace. Theoretical engineering is great, if you want to teach. If you want to work in industry, which the majority of engineering students do, is it to your benefit?</p>
<p>I will not name the University but my H employs engineers from a certain top university. The kids are very smart, but sometimes he feels that they are not prepared for what they encounter in the workplace. Just his opinion.</p>
<p>deb - I totally agree with you, but two comments. First we should not use the terms "computer engineering" and "computer science" as interchangeable. They are two different majors. Second, my interpretation of the OP was that they were looking for a more rigorous program (although rereading the OP, that's not clear). I was suggesting that looking at the faculty websites can give you a very good understanding of what to expect from a program.</p>
<p>I do agree that if you are looking for a "job" and the BS is the terminal degree, then the CMU Computer SCIENCE program is probably NOT for you.</p>
<p>For example, in my entire grad school career, I did not take a single programming course.</p>
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[quote]
But if you are looking for rigor, you'll want - even as an undergrad - a school that has a PhD program.
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<p>I don't understand why you would say that.</p>
<p>the thread is deviating towards a different subject, so I'll "up the ante". Does it really matter if a computer science "wannabe" majors in computer science, or math, physics, or history with lots of computer classes- unless he enrolls at MIT, Stanford, CMU and maybe a couple of other top tier colleges?</p>
<p>beck - </p>
<p>I say that probably out of pure bias (I'm a theory/former academic guy). You are right. What I said is not necessarily true, especially if you are going for a job somewhere in the IT industry.</p>
<p>BUT, if that is the case, I somewhat agree with sdavis. If you really have an interest in computers, it may not matter what you major in (although I would think that the initial job would be easier to get if one has a comp sci BS). For example, my son has a very deep knowledge of computers and has written some very sophisticated content management software that he sells to supplement his college money. And his major? Video Production with minors in Film and Business. And he's currently writing software to interface with one of the leading screenplay programs to manage production/equipment/personnel scheduling. We were in the Apple Store the other day and he was giving me a long, detailed explanation of some piece of equipment. Then we noticed someone else eavesdropping on the explanation: the store's manager, who wanted to offer my son a job on the spot.</p>
<p>Most of my career has been in artificial intelligence (I worked for two years in the AI Lab of CMU's Computer Science Department). One of my favorite systems we ever did in a job (Bell Labs) was based on a mathematical model, and when the system wasn't doing what we wanted it to do, we debugged the math, rather than the program. When we made changes to the logical model, we'd then change the code to correspond with our changes.</p>
<p>Fun stuff.</p>
<p>sdavis,</p>
<p>I think you have it backwards: The better known the school, the less important the major. Why? The contacts and general rep are better.</p>
<p>The lesser known a school (say some small college somewhat known in the south but not in the west) the more useful it is to have the right major.</p>
<p>To be precise, a history major from Berkeley with some good science/math courses might find it easier to work in Silicon Valley than someone with the same credentials from a school not so well known in CA. In the latter case a CS or CE degree MIGHT give him some credibility for certain jobs.</p>
<p>But it is of course true, that even a college degree is not absolutely necessary to succeed in most jobs outside of pure research.</p>