<p>Thank you all for your thoughts. As far as I can see from this improvised public survey, colleges have been very successful in making the wide majority of kids and parents out there buy into the idea that the four years of undergraduate education should be about bettering the inner selves of our children and that colleges do not need to care about the employability of their graduates. After all, they will get more in tuition money when those same graduates will later come back for their Masters and PHDs when they realize that they don't have the knowledge they need to succeed in professional environement. Unfortunately, this realization may come a little too late for many when they cannot afford going back to school due to money constraints or family obligations.
I don't blame the kids for not knowing how to select colleges or what expects them after four wonderful years of education in any field they may like, but I blame the aggressive college advertizing and poor high shool counseling for not showing college applicants the realities of the world. What I as a parent would like to see on each college / school website is a report showing what their graduates are doing 1, 3, 5 years after graduation and beyond, and what average salary they are earning. This certainly sounds too pragmatic for this thread, but wouldn't you like to see such statistics?
A few words about computer programming since the off-shoring argument comes up pretty often in such discussion. I am in the programming field, work with off-shore teams and know the situation first-hand. The truth is, I don't see American college graduates applying to many available high-paying computer jobs that are currently available in the US. There is a shortage of such graduates in the US, and I think it is because many kids see computer science major as something not very interesting and most importantly, requiring a lot of hard work. And hard work is not something that high school counselors talk about.</p>
<p>The University of Chicago is a university known for emphasizing the "life of the mind" over pre-professionalism, and every student undertakes a rigorous liberal arts education.</p>
<p>Here is last year's data. It doesn't look like the students are in crisis to me. Also keep in mind that this data is taken in May for the class that is about to graduate; I'm sure 1 year out the data is more complete.
[quote]
In May of each year, we survey all of our graduating 4th years. With over a 94% response rate, we feel very confident that our data reflects the plans of our graduating classes.</p>
<p>The following information is from the class of 2007, but has held more or less constant over the past 4 years:</p>
<p>We received 1,020 responses to our survey, a rate of 95%.</p>
<p>Status</p>
<pre><code>* 430 had accepted full-time employment offers (42%)
* 187 had been admitted to graduate or professional school (18%)
* 87 had applied for full-time employment and were waiting to hear (9%)
* 259 planned to begin their job search process after graduation (25%)
* 19 planned to focus on graduate or professional school applications in coming months (2%)
* 30 indicated they did not yet know what they would do after graduation (3%)
</code></pre>
<p>Salary</p>
<p>397 of the 430 students who reported having accepted full-time jobs indicated salaries.
More than $60,000 - 15%
$50,000-$60,000 - 19%
$40,000-$50,000 - 16%
$30,000-$40,000 - 17%
$20,000-$30,000 - 16%
Less than $20,000 - 14%
Unpaid - 4%</p>
<p>Industry</p>
<p>376 of the 430 respondents who had accepted full-time jobs gave job type. Those most frequently named were:
Banking/Brokerage/Finance - 22%
Teaching - 16%
Consulting - 11%
Healthcare/Research Science - 11%
Government/Legal Services - 7%
Technology - 5%
Arts/Communications - 3%
Social and Community Service - 3%</p>
<p>Employment geography</p>
<p>42% of respondents found work in Chicago.
17% went to New York City.
3% went to Washington DC.
2% went to San Francisco.</p>
<p>12% found jobs outside the US.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>EDIT: I also just want to add that you should consider the possibility that you may be wrong--or at the very least behind the times. When parents, current students, universities, college career services, and a variety of firms and professional schools disagree with you, you should really re-consider your position. I've seen numerous articles and statements from a variety of places stating the same message, that your major is not a limitation. I was going to post a few, but I have the feeling you wouldn't change your mind one bit if I did. If you'd like, do your own research. College career services are meant to help students find good jobs--they wouldn't lie about the best ways to do that, and many career services websites state the same message that's in the original link. Many large firms, businesses, and other organizations state clearly on their websites that they do not have major requirements and are instead focused on the skills a student has gained in that major, such as great qualitative analysis or communication skills. If you are sincerely curious, I can track some of these down for you, but I'm not going to waste my time if you're just going to insist that everybody is being brainwashed, all evidence to the contrary.</p>
<p>Any stats by major?</p>
<p>Not that I could find, but the University of Chicago does not offer majors in Business, Management, Finance, Accounting, Engineering, or most other applied disciplines.</p>
<p>Ha-ha, interesting (and familiar) thread. Hi ma, hi younger sis. (I'm the older one; I used to post here a while ago and remember some of you. Can't log into my old account for some reason...)</p>
<p>Everyone makes good points here. We're immigrants from the former USSR, so yes, our parents' ideas about education are very different from yours, and frankly, ours (sis&I). I'm not saying they are better or worse; just two completely incompatible systems that both have their merits. </p>
<p>In some aspects, I have seen that Soviet education in math, science, grammar, etc. (at least in high school) was stronger than the one sis and I got in the US. Then again, there was also the element of inflexibility and dogmatic pursuit for the advance of the Communist Party! You give, and you take. </p>
<p>You may wonder, why talk about it now, when everything has changed around the world and when the "mother country" is not even in the picture? Because ideas stick. People adjust and learn and change, but core values remain -- and not necessarily about advancement of the proletariat, but rather about how education should be structured. I think that among many immigrants (whether they are Russian, Indian, whatever), a culture of pre-professional pursuit is pretty adamant. It's because our parents had to work hard to succeed here, they had to adapt; they had to learn what worked and what didn't through experimentation. They don't want us to have to repeat that, so they push us to study what is more or less guaranteed a higher salary from the onset. That's an admirable and understandable concern.</p>
<p>However, the reality is that we are navigating a different boat now. Regardless of its merits or downfalls, the American educational system is the only one I really know well. If others have succeed, there is no reason that I could not. After all, I wonder suddenly, why I have to be in such a hurry. The difference is that we, as Americans, now, already have a base. Our parents did well to succeed as they have and to set up "the springing board" for us, so to speak. Now, we have to follow the system as other Americans do.</p>
<p>For starters, I am a senior at a prestigious university with a strong LA focus in the Northeast. I'm also considerably more liberal-artsy than my sister, pretty polarized in the direction of writing, history, foreign language and lack of any ability in math. Of course, I know that sis's best interests are at heart if she were to study something career-oriented like business or economics. I also know that just because other American college graduates are applying to computer "high-paying jobs", it doesn't make me want to do so. I don't have the personality to do something that makes me unhappy -- spoiled, perhaps, by good fortune and parents' success. But if I doesn't want to, I wouldn't want her to, either. </p>
<p>And I know way too many mentally and emotionally disgruntled 23-year-old Russian computer scientists. Because that's "what Russian guys do". Are they happy? Nope, just disgruntled. </p>
<p>I majored in international relations and minored in mass media communications. Right now I'm applying to publishing companies, marketing, non-profits... just seeing what happens. No plan really, and that makes 'rents disappointed. </p>
<p>Actually, for me it's fine for now. I like to write, to travel... someday I'll find something combining that. Not right away. I think mamochka is concerned that my choice is a mistake and that sis should avoid that. Ultimately, there is no way to find "the effectiveness of my major" until I actually get hired someplace, so I won't comment on that. </p>
<p>My advice to sis would be to compromise between "what is interesting" and "what can be useful without making you miserable". The "useful" part will probably be easier for her than she thinks, given that I know her and her skills. Major in something you like but something that can also be "marketed". If economics does not make you suffer in pain (like it did for me), there's not reason not to double major in it -- and in something else that interests you more. Had I just gone with what I "liked", I would have probably majored in something like Spanish and anthropology, but I went the multidisciplinary route and I feel as prepared (or not) as other graduates do. (These other graduates may be engineers or whatever. They're still clueless about what they want to do a large part of the time.) Find the balance between "chilling out too much" and becoming a MonsterTrak zombie before you even get to school. </p>
<p>Sorry about the novel of a post. To sum up: mamochka is right that the job market is not emphasized enough by colleges and that college marketing is, frankly, so ridiculous that I'm seriously considering looking for a job writing it. However, others are right in encouraging students to pursue their interests fully and develop their interpresonal and communication skills. Ultimately, in this system, the latter is what will get you ahead.</p>
<p>The top two majors at the University of Chicago are:
Economics: 440 (8.3%)
Biological Sciences: 289 (5.5%)</p>
<p>There are statistics gathered on average starting salaries for undergraduate degrees and I posted some on another thread with regard to PoliSci/Government majors from a report that my company participates in. Participating colleges range from Ivy League to smaller state schools in all regions of the country. I've not looked at the list of companies, but my company is a global Fortune 100 company that recruits in all regions of the country for positions all over the world and we participate in this association's annual survey. Many colleges gather information about their graduates much like the University of Chicago does/did. I remember participating back in the "olden" days for a period of time after graduation so the data is available and is probably available if you contact the colleges you are interested in. An information thing that I did for Son #1 was to request copies of the alumni magazine and/or read the alumni magazines on line and look at see what the alumni were doing 1, 5 and 10 years after graduation. It's usually a self selecting group of people who tend to contribute to alumni news, but it does give a snapshot of where a particular group of individuals are heading and who may be recruiting, although colleges are also forthcoming with which companies recruit on campus. My final thoughts are there is nothing in this country that says any parent must or even should fork out $200,000 for a good, solid viable college education. It's always a personal decision. If you have having trouble stomaching the cost, point your children elsewhere for their education, perhaps that will help your personal investment equation. There are also colleges and universities that are more focused on employable skills and experiences through the nature of their curriculum, co-op programs, etc. that by nature focus more on a "job" skills post graduation as opposed to the more liberal emphasis. Employment success, like college admissions, is very much based on multiple factors of which only one is the degree.</p>
<p>A word about picking a major: Doubleplay actually makes a good point in #32. The "elimination method" worked for me as well, albeit in a different direction academically. Generally, by taking required classes and following the "useful-interesting" scale, a student should have a pretty good idea about what field(s) interest him or her by the second semester of freshman year. And as the post before me said, I'm finding out that the job search is ever a combination of factors...</p>
<p>what percentage of Chicago grads are earning less per year than what they paid out in college costs?</p>
<p>I cant help it, I am not so thrilled about full time employment-when many jobs are not enough to pay the rent and pay down loans at same time.</p>
<p>I also consider a liberal arts education an investment with benefits for society. I don't want a world of worker bees, each laboring away in his/her own specialty. I believe that it's important to see how ideas fit together. Many Nobel prizes are won by people working out of their field of training because they bring a fresh approach.</p>
<p>My dad was a highly placed NYC businessman. He always hired English majors for his department. His feeling was that if someone can write and speak the rest can be learned. The same can be said for math skills I'm sure. He found the business majors the least desirable employees.</p>
<p>Again, investing in human capital means creating fuller human beings. This is not my obligation, but my desire. I've devoted my life to this in the workplace and in my household. I teach English/Humanities at a community college. Opening our students' minds to ideas and possibilities instead of focusing on rote and vocational learning creates more informed citizens. Hey, these kids are going to run the country when I am in the nursing home. I want to know that I did my bit to see that I did a good job.</p>
<p>I am happy that my kids are choosing majors to grow them. They have vocational goals for which a college degree is necessary. These goals do not specify major; each is choosing the major of most benefit to them. This is what I want them to do.</p>
<p>Yes, I did know that those were the top majors at Chicago. I thought you were looking for the breakdown of the stats I gave you by major. Actually, though, the percentages are a pretty good example of what I've been saying. If 8.3% of students are econ majors (I don't know what year that data is from) and 22% of students go into banking or finance, then at least 13.7% of those students now in the banking industry majored in a field other than economics. The number is likely much higher than that since many econ students go onto graduate study, and many enter other fields. The same could be said for the other fields I'm sure, as well. Teaching, by the way, has a very high percentage in large part because Teach for America is a very popular program for U of C grads. I believe they are one of the top employers of graduates.</p>
<p>EK4, you know that's an impossible number when you take financial aid into account. It also doesn't make all that much sense. You're comparing college costs, which most parents have been saving for for years, with the income of the first job taken by a 22 year old. You should also remember that students do not necessarily take the highest paying job. As I said, Teach for America is consistently one of the top-5 employers for U of C grads every year. Those students could probably find higher-paying jobs, but they instead decide to devote a couple of years to helping students at disadvantaged schools.</p>
<p>Besides all of this, getting the highest possible income should not be your #1 priority. Isn't that what parents are continually telling students on this board? To go with fit over prestige, passion over money? College--and education in general--is about more than feeding students into high paying jobs after graduation. Think about life beyond work for a minute.</p>
<p>mamochka... oh well, maybe I'm brainwashed by evil universities... and I'm too lazy to get into a lengthy discussion on the topic - so I won't even try to present my opinion on the matter.</p>
<p>I just have some links and quotes for you...</p>
<p>Princeton</a> Career survey - pretty amazing reading, especially the "Employment by industry" part... </p>
<p>Oh, and yes, they have the "salaries" part there, and it's pretty amasing, too (especially "by major" part). :D
[quote]
Philosophy $71,250
Politics $55,935
Religion $50,500
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Who takes up all those Financial Services jobs, Economics majors? Operations Research majors? Well, no, not necessarily. Analyst</a> (entry level):
[quote]
Candidates should possess strong analytical, organizational, and communication skills. ...with excellent academic records, regardless of major.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And some more amazing reading: the collegeconfidential own Parents: What was your major? thread...</p>
<p>Marmat, JP Morgan actually has an entire section of their website devoted to financial services jobs for non-business majors: JPMorgan</a> - Not a business major?. I've seen similar sentiments on many other sites for other industries as well.</p>
<p>corranged, none of my kids is interested in finances and/or an office job. Unfortunately. :rolleyes: But for those who are interested - yeah, there's quite a few of entry-level jobs around.</p>
<p>Well, from mamochka's younger daughter post it's obvious that her mom shouldn't be worried ;); but what about the parents whose children actually ARE interested in music theory anf French more than in anything else? ;)</p>
<p>^^^Personally, as a parent, I would strongly advise my children to double major or at least make sure to pick up teaching credentials along the way if those were their primary interests.</p>
<p>I encourage both my kids to always be thinking about where they want to be and what they want to be doing two years out, five years out, ten years out. It's just a practical thing to do. You can still enjoy life in the present, but contemplating the future is wise too. This means thinking about what kind of work you might want to do, or at least what kind of skills/activities you enjoy doing and are good at, as well as income. One of my sons indicates that a good strong income stream is important to him. The other- well, he wants to be comfortable but ending up "rich" is not necessarily his focus. I think it's reasonable to consider that when deciding what you want to do with your life.</p>
<p>In general I am of the belief that it's not realistic or even good for 18-year-olds to know their future careers. I do think it's good for students to spend college exploring their interests and keeping their minds open. </p>
<p>That's the theory. In practice, I want my daughter to be employed when she graduates. </p>
<p>One of the sad things about the loan burden of many students is that they feel pressure to major in a high-paying career.</p>
<p>There are many kids here on CC who are obsessed with going to the right college to get them the right job afterward. Here's an example:</p>
<p>"I am leaning toward ED Brown, but I was worried about a Econ degree from Brown in terms of bulge bracket I-bank recruiting?
I have heard that Dartmouth has an overwhelming edge when it come to the Street. Could anyone tell me more about this?"</p>
<p>Mamochka, you might applaud this kid's single mindedness, but I don't. I'm afraid that such a focus will be like this kid is wearing blinders, unable to see the world of opportunities around him/her. There's such a focus on the future that kids don't live in the present.</p>
<p>I think it is also true, however, that many high school guidance counselors do not do an adecuate job of informing students about how to choose a college -- not to mention how to use a humanities degree. The commentary tends to be limited to "you can be whatever you want to be" and to choose based on a "feel" of the school and if they like the campus and the social life, rather than the course offerings. While the emphasis should not necessarily be on "how much you will earn" coming out, I wish my guidance counselors had considered potential professional applications of my interests when they had advised me. </p>
<p>In college, on the other hand, I have been quite satisfied with the opportunities explained to me about what to do with my liberal arts degree, beyond the "show yourself" mantra. Research has been encouraged, as has been non-profit work, as has been the private sector and various industries -- there were plenty of options to take advantage of. There are a number of networking nights, guest speakers, informational sessions and opportunities for students to get involved in career-minded clubs if they so wish. </p>
<p>Perhaps if some high school guidance counselors stepped back a bit from telling 18-year-olds to "feel it out", students would not be so confused as freshmen. This doesn't mean pushing them towards any major that is "more professional", but rather explaining what humanities and social science majors do offer them and how those acquired skills will be used. And what colleges are for, frankly, beyond social life.</p>
<p>If it were my kids interested in music theory or French I'd say go for it. We have no way of telling where these interests will lead. If kid is fluent in French that's a big plus if the student does eventually want a business career.</p>
<p>I have spent my life in higher ed. Parents, aunts, uncles all wondered why I would get a PhD in English rather than go to law school. I took Joseph Campbell seriously: Follow your bliss.</p>
<p>I adore literature. I don't adore courtrooms.</p>
<p>I have tenure. I have never been unemployed. I have fabulous health insurance. I have summers completely off if I want them. I stay home during the month of January when there are often five accidents a day on our highways here. </p>
<p>More importantly, I was able to easily take four years off to raise my kids. Never needed a nanny. Never needed daycare -- nursery school was enough. Spent vacations and summers with my kids and had a career (that I still have).</p>
<p>Music theory? Do you know how difficult it is? I do, because my S is majoring in music theory and composition. His classes meet five days a week. They require excellent math skills and excellent listening skills. They also require a strong work ethic because they are as demanding as a lab science and are structured the same way.</p>
<p>What could he do? He could teach, arrange, write music, commericials, score films, well the list is actually endless.</p>
<p>However, he wants to go to med school and has been talking to med school adcoms. They like his major. Apparently, there is a correlation between music and medicine, a frequent pairing. But if he didn't want to go to med school I would still say, go for it. If he became a high school music teacher I would be just as satisfied as if he went into a high powered business career. As long as an adult is self-supporting I don't think it matters if he earns enough to buy a 1500 sq. ft. house or 6,000 sq. ft. house.</p>
<p>BTW: DD wants law school and is preparing for it. She wants public interest law. She is looking into schools that have loan forgiveness if she works in the public sector. I wouldn't think of steering her into corporate law. She's an idealist. She also loves expensive clothes so she might eventally make that decision on her own, but it's her decision, and I couldn't care less.</p>