<p>If my son is going to ask his English teacher for a rec for next year he needs to do that before the school year ends. She is very particular about the whole process of providing recs and she will not do recs for all students who ask her. When my older son asked for recs he was very certain who he asked would write excellent ones. He was a real standout from the rest of the bunch academically and with an EC that he was know for in the school. My son who will be applying in the fall is a great honor/ap student, great athlete and all around well respected in the school community but does not stand out with anything too unique. He tells me he has no idea if this teacher will write a great rec. How do you really know a teacher will when it is not obvious? What do you do in this case? Is it appropriate for him to ask her upfront if she will? How forward can the student be in asking the teacher to write a rec a certain way? I guess I wonder how do you gauge who will write a great rec? How much has to do with the teacher just writing great recs and is a great writer vs. the content of what they see being the most important? Would it be better to have better things said about the student bur not written as well, or a very well written rec with maybe mediocre things about the student. From what I have heard you want the recs to speak about how the student " is the best..., better than, most unique at.."</p>
<p>My daughter asked the teachers whose classes she enjoyed for a rec. She attended a small school where she was not ( IMO) THE shining student. ( she waited too long to ask her first choice teacher- so she had to go with English and AmGov, not biology her major)
Also my opinion, hyperbole is not as effective as a recommendation that can discuss what they brought to the class . When a teacher is experienced at writing recommendations and when they value the process enough to want advance notice and limit their recommendations it sounds as if they are well prepared to do so, even for a student who is not #1 in the class.
Recommendations IMO are to fill in the background and make the student more real and human, not to make them sound like Superstudent whomustbeadmitted.</p>
<p>Tough one.</p>
<p>It might be that your son stands out and just doesn't know it. His teachers probably see things that he doesn't even know makes him unique. Of course, the difficult thing is knowing which teachers see that. Which bring us to your question.</p>
<p>Perhaps the best thing to do is to ask very nicely but also give her an out, a way for her to signal that she might not be willing (or able) to write a the kind of recommendation he wants. Then he'd know and could gracefully withdraw the request. He could tell her that he knows she's particular about recommendations and makes a sincere effort to give admissions committees the best information. He could say that he really feels he needs recommendations that show the admissions committee how he's more than just another honor student, because he'll be competing against many other fine students with similar credentials. Then he could follow up with "Do you feel you know me well enough to be comfortable writing a recommendation for me?" </p>
<p>If she wasn't enthusiastic (or simply felt she didn't have good knowledge of his best gifts) she could decline nicely, and he could find a different teacher to write it.</p>
<p>" Would it be better to have better things said about the student bur not written as well, or a very well written rec with maybe mediocre things about the student."</p>
<p>It is better to have better things said about the student. Sometimes less "polished" and well-written recs are more effective because they sound more sincere.
If your son asks the teacher for a rec, and the teacher is hesitant, he should probably ask someone else. Most teachers will give a hint if they are not willing to write a good rec.</p>
<p>actually I'd take what nngmm said a step further. Rather than having the kid try to judge whether the teacher is hesitant, ask outright if they can write a strong rec. This IS appropriate, phrased politely of course. </p>
<p>For example, "Am I a student you would write a strong letter of reccomendation for, or do you suggest I ask someone else?" Tell the student not to argue or question why if the answer is ask someone else, simply to thank the teacher for their honest answer.</p>
<p>If you could ask every teacher your kid had for their opinion, many times the result would be mixed bag. And sometimes a teacher you assume would like a kid (due to a high grade, for example) sees things differently. There is no shame or dishonor in deliberately selecting those who hold a favorable opinion to write a rec. </p>
<p>And while it can be uncomfortable for a student to ask a direct question like this to a teacher, it HAS to be done. In the book "The Gatekeepers" is an example of a bad rec.
[quote]
There were times, I must admit,that I thought Tiffany might have taken a stronger interest in mastering the material in our course. When I saw that Tiffany was a National Merit Semi-Finalist I was a bit surprised. While clearly bright and competent, I had seen in Tiffany neither an exceptional skill for testing nor a particular affinity for the subject.
[/quote]
This could have been avoided if the teacher had been asked if they would write a strong rec. The student did not get in.</p>
<p>My son had the best guidance counsulor who (when my son asked privately who he should ask for recs ) told him to avoid a particular teacher (teacher was known to play favorites) . This teacher really did know my son the best and seemed to like him, but I think the guidance counsulor knew that this teacher may have not written the best recs in the past (or else ran hot and cold) so he was not a sure bet. If you can trust your guidance counsulor, they has seen teachers for years and can steer your son to teachers that consistantly write positive recs.</p>
<p>Do guidance counselors in small schools tell the kids what the teachers write so they will know what schools to shoot for/or to ask someone else for rec?</p>
<p>I will be interested to follow this thread as we've been mulling over similar questions here. My son's school is on a program (I believe called an "academy" or something) where the kids take courses which will be in line with what they plan on majoring in college (they can change their minds from year to year, though). For example, my son who will be a senior is in the engineering academy and has taken AP calc, chem, CAD, engineering/drafting, architecture, etc. It is hard to have a teacher write a rec from those classes about "....he adds so much to class discussions...." when there is virtually NO class discussion! In fact, we just emailed his English teacher yesterday to see what she would say. She had asked his permission to copy a couple of his papers because she liked them so much, but he is a very shy, quiet type who does not like to draw attention to himself; so he does not speak out in discussions every day (but he sometimes does and he says the teacher always thinks his remarks are insightful).</p>
<p>I too will follow this thread. It will come as no surprise to many that I "have a plan". (Oh No! Not another plan!) D believes that teacher A,B, and C will write good rec's for her. At our school the student doesn't ever see the college recs. But- when D applied for a volunteer opp this summer she needed two rec's. She picked A and B. She saw the rec's . A can really write a rec (says my D, I never saw it.) while B was adequate. She will be applying to other things soon and we will use C and D, and so on. Then when the time comes for the real deal, we will at least know that the recommenders can and have written an excellent recommendation for D. This is the best plan I've got.</p>
<p>I agree with mikemacs suggestion. Also, sometimes its good to talk it over with the gc, who might have a pretty good idea about the kinds of letters teachers write.</p>
<p>The GC can be very helpful, in steering you to the right teacher. About half the students in DD's school apply to colleges that require recs, but many apply to other things, and, as anywhere else, the same teachers often get asked to write the letters. The GC suggested a teacher that DD was reluctant to ask because the teacher was a senior year teacher, so DD had only been in her class for a couple of weeks, BUT, she was sponsor for one of DD's ECs, so her rec actually rounded out the picture.
One of the beauties of a smaller school, is that the teachers often know the students both in and out of class, providing different perspectives, and sometimes a better letter, even if the teacher is not a particularly gifted writer. Of course, the downside is they know the warts, too!</p>
<p>I think everyone is on the right track with their answers. My brother has taught English for years and does a ton of recs for many bright kids that have been accepted at great schools. He teaches at a large public school. He says word tends to get around as to whom to ask for recs and he talks to his juniors and seniors about the process at the start of the year. </p>
<p>One thing he emphasizes is giving the recommender enough time to do the job thoughtfully. He will tell a student if he does not feel it is in their best interest to have him as a reference but he will always tell them why and help them come up with an alternative. He will tell them what they can do to help him write a good recommendation...documentation or tips for the future, if they are juniors. One thing he really stresses is the importance of choosing someone that knows the student well and that has taught a class where the student has been successful but ALSO picking a reference that has strong writing skills. He has seen many awful recommendations that have been handed back to students before being mailed that were, for example...not being biased...written (?) by great science (etc) teachers. He has often been used as an emergency reference replacement on the advice of the principal. Hate to think about the times those recs have been mailed by the teacher without being perused by the student first, and the outcome! Oh, and he always gives a copy of his recommendation to the student BEFORE it is sent to the college.</p>
<p>The moral of the story is, start early and ask around. Don't be afraid to ask a teacher for their honest opinion. If they are reticent, I think I would go elsewhere!</p>
<p>Son's jr yr we went to one college cattle call session. Rice, Columbia and 2 or 3 others were there. I think it was the Columbia rep that suggested the students ask the teacher if they felt they could write a good rec. She said that just being the best student might not be enough. The student who worked more, but might not be best might get a better rec. I asked 2 teachers this "son says he is going to ask you to write a rec. Do you feel you are able to write a good rec for son. If not, I will encourage son not to ask you." I use to run into both these teachers often during son's hs yr and I felt comfortable asking the question. I should have asked one of the men if they would also send in the rec in a timely manner (teacher had rec beginning of Nov and sent it in late Jan when we asked for a copy because we thought school had lost it).</p>
<p>It's possible that your school school has a similar practice as my school; I recently found out from my College counselor that at the end of every year every student's teacher (in my school) writes a brief report about the student and progress in their particular class. These reports go to the college office, who can later use them as quotes in their reccommendation of stduents. When I went ot my GC with my reccommendation dilemma, he let me know what my teachers had reported on me earlier. It helped a lot. So, while I go to a relatively small private scholl (~125 per grade), it may be the case at any of your schools too.</p>
<p>I like the idea of asking the teacher if he or she could write a positive recomendation. </p>
<p>I would add the following: In some cases I think it is fine to guide the teacher in the content you are looking for. For example, my daughter will be applying to theater programs and will still have a former science teacher write a rec. My daughter did fine in this class, but she was not the star. The teacher understands that the letter will go on behalf of a musical theater applicant and thus it should talk about her commitment, her perserverance, her attitude, etc. -- traits that are important in the theater world -- NOT her skills in chemistry.</p>
<p>At some schools, the guidance counselors see the recommendations and can if they are very good at their job (and not overwhelmed with paper pushing) flag a recommendation that will be a negative. </p>
<p>A couple of years ago at college day at my son's school, we had a session with an admission director from a college who distributed a real recommendation. The student had asked this particular teacher because the student had just gotten interested in anatomy and this teacher taught it. It was relatively early in the year. The teacher wrote something like, "I really don't know so and so." This kid did not get into the school. That particular recommendation could so easily have been phrased, "While I have only known so and so for a short time, he has demonstrated his ability...."</p>
<p>My son being the kind of kid who is alternately the favorite and the less so vacillating between the limelight and the doghouse so to speak -- (see thread on awards :) ) he really worried about whom to ask. One reference was a combination plate of an 11th grade teacher who had retired (she LOVED him) and a 12th grade teacher who was extremely objective, but less demonstrative. Her son was a good friend of my sons so at least he had the personal side covered. We never saw the recommendation but I believe it turned out okay.</p>
<p>The other rec was from a superstar teacher with a flamboyant personality. Her reaction to my son ran hot and cold. I was concerned and just hoped she would write on a hot day. We never saw that letter either but when our son recycled it for a summer program application the director of the program called the teacher and praised her for writing such an entertaining recommendation! The lesson here is maybe the histrionic teachers are a bit risky.</p>
<p>My sons third reference was related to a specific talent and was also written by a highly emotional instructor. This one we saw (thank God) and though she accurately nailed my sons personality (nailed the coffin might be more appropriate) her frank analysis of his good and bad points was less than helpful. Beware of recommenders who may adhere to the Sigmund Freud school of pop-psychology. </p>
<p>A few months ago, someone on this board (sorry I just cant remember who) noted that a recommendation is meant to be good news. It is a recommendation not an evaluation. After I thought about this I really had to agree. Dont take chances on recommendations. You dont want a fair and balanced view. You want a GOOD view. If you have any doubts, enlist the help of your GC to review them before they go out.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone.This has definitely been helpful getting different perspectives. It is good to hear that you feel it is appropriate and in fact wise to suggest to my son that he come right out and ask his English teacher if she feels she knows him well enough to be able to write a strong rec. The guidance counselor I don't think will be helpful. The department is pretty uninvolved with the whole college process and I just don't think she has a real grasp on the teacher and how she will write recs but I do think it is worth my son checking with her anyway. So thank you.</p>
<p>I talked to one of the teachers that wrote a recommendation for my son last fall. My son never saw the recommendations. What was interesting was that she told me it was easy to write my son's recommendation; but she added she has to work hard on writing some. What that told me is that teachers generally are looking for positive things to say about a student. And so they should; or if they can't, they should decline a student's request.</p>
<p>The lesson here is maybe the histrionic teachers are a bit risky.</p>
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<blockquote> </blockquote>
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<p>This is my concern with the teacher my daughter is planning to ask to write her recommendations. It's the teacher she had last year for AP Euro. This teacher is a very high strung personality who runs hot and cold and can cut you with a knife in such a polite way that you don't realize you've been cut until you see the blood.</p>
<p>She does know my daughter better than most of her other teachers, and seemed to like her quite a bit on both an academic and personal level. Daughter will also have her again next year for an honors history course.</p>
<p>Daughter asked her to write a recommendation for her summer program and she let D. read it. It was quite nice. But, when the package containing the recommendation was lost somewhere between the post office and the summer program office, the summer program urged us to have everything re-sent so D. would not miss the deadline and get into her first choice class in the program. The guidance counselor who had also written a rec. for the program had no problem with this, said it happens all the time, but the teacher had a fit. </p>
<p>She had saved the recommendation on her computer so it shouldn't have been a huge ordeal to resend it. But she not-so-subtly accused both my daughter and of having lost the recommendation ourselves before mailing it and lying about it being lost after mailing. In fact, she even called the head of the summer program to double check that her recommendation wan't the only thing that hadn't arrived. The head of the summer program called me and said "she's quite an intense person isn't she?" which leads me to believe that she was not exactly...polite...when she called. When the first package of materials was finally found (sitting in a classroom building), I made sure to forward the letter of apology from the summer program head to both the guidance counselor and teacher with a second thank you for their help.</p>
<p>However, since then this particular teacher has been very cold to my daughter and I - not saying hello to us when we passed her on campus for example, when in the past she would always stop and chat for a bit - and I am worried about my daughter using her for the real thing.
My daughter will have her for another class next year, so we will see if she "cools down" over the summer, but I am not sure how we will judge that. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, daughter says she feels like none of her other teachers know her as well - she is a quiet kid who doesn't necessarily stand out in the classroom. The only two other teachers that daughter feels she has any personal connection with are her art teacher (obviously not good for the main recommendation but she knows D. very well and geniunely likes her) and her french teacher who she has had for the past three years. However, she feels that the french teacher isn't exactly warm and fuzzy either. </p>
<p>Any thoughts on this? By the way, her guidance counselor knows D. very, very well and, based on the letter she wrote for the summer program and what she has told me privately about how she views D. in comparison to her peers, I think she will write a very strong recommendation for her but it will, of course, mostly deal with D's character and personal traits, not her in a classroom setting.</p>
<p>I used to think that letters of recommendation that were shown to students or parents were not really truthful, as they represented more an expression of popularity than a true assessment. I used to believe that the decision by colleges to ask for the participation of teachers and GC in the admission process was abominable because teachers and GC are easily the weakest link in the entire process. </p>
<p>I have changed my mind a bit: I think even less of the participation of school officials and I would NOT trust ANYONE from the school to write something I would not have the opportunity to review. Having seen what happened at my school and the impact on several students, I would NEVER, EVER trust the school to send anything official. Obviously, to get the school to agree does take a lot of diplomacy, since you cannot simply tell them that you really do not trust them at all. </p>
<p>However, when asking teachers to write a recommendation letter, I would not only ask them if they could write a strong letter but also if they agree to share the contents before sending it off. There are just too many words that a well-meaning teacher could use that have negative overtones. For instance, the last thing you want is a letter that contains adjectives such as diligent, perfectionist, or even polite to a fault. </p>
<p>Despite being more important, the GC might be harder to convince. However, offering the GC to check the letters of the teachers -who are supposed to know you better- may go a long way to safely navigate around this obvious obstacle. I would make sure to obtain all the recommendation letters as early as possible because there is another issue: if your school insist to send your application, be firm in stating that you want to see the final envelope before being sealed and sent off. Tell the school that you want to incorporate some prepaid postcards that will serve as acknowledgement of receipt by the college. This should be your chance to review the transcript and make sure that it ONLY contains your grades and NOTHING else. Do not accept the inclusion of PSAT, PLAN, SAT, ACT or other scores. This information does NOT belong to your high school and they have no right to disclose them to your potential college. This information is YOURS and you should control which school gets the OFFICIAL information. </p>
<p>In so many words, do what you have to do to obtain the best set of documents, but do NOT trust the high school. The school will NEVER accept any responsibility for errors in reporting grades, test scores, or other information. It is YOUR responsibility to never relinquish the full control. </p>
<p>The day that colleges decide to punt the asinine requirements of letters of recommendation from teachers and GC will not come a day too soon!</p>