<p>Carolyn -I can definitely inderstand why you would be concerned. If she really has been cold to your daughter (I don't think her ignoring you would be a problem if she was being her old friendly self to your daughter) and it is such a change from the way she used to relate to your daughter then I don't think I would ask her for a rec. Like you said, your daughter will see how she relates to her next year but I think I would still be nervous . Ideally, and after reading this thread (which I started by the way) our children should ask the teacher who is most likely to be a slam dunk. I don't see the problem with her getting a rec from the art teacher who knows her so well and likes her. I don't think it matters that she is an art teacher. I would think it is far better for her to get one from the art teacher who she would feel as secure as she could that the teacher would write a real positive rec than taking the risk with the high strung History teacher who you had such an episode with. She sounds like the type that if she went that nutty before as you described then she is too unpredictable and I would be too afraid she would not write a top notch rec. The fact that she accused you of lying is reason enough to not have trust in her rec. After the incident you had with her I would have to look for someone else. Hope this wasn't too harsh of a response but I wanted to be honest and tell you what I would do if I were in your shoes.</p>
<p>xiggi - very interesting. Let's say a student follows your advise and is given their packet and reads a rec in it that is negative or just very weak and rather useless. What do you do at this point given everything needs to be sent off to your schools and you can't really start asking a different teacher for a rec at that late stage and if you don't send the negative one you will be short a rec to submit?</p>
<p>Carolyn writes <a href="edited%20version">quote</a> Daughter asked her to write a recommendation for her summer program and she let D. read it. But, when the package containing the recommendation was lost... she not-so-subtly accused both my daughter and of having lost the recommendation ourselves before mailing it and lying about it being lost after mailing. she even called the head of the summer program to double check... When the first package of materials was finally found I made sure to forward the letter of apology from the summer program...</p>
<p>However, since then this particular teacher has been very cold to my daughter and I - not saying hello to us when we passed her on campus for example, when in the past she would always stop and chat for a bit - and I am worried about my daughter using her for the real thing.
[/quote]
Carolyn, this is just my gut feel after reading your posting, but I think this teacher has it in for you and I would NOT use her for a rec. Why? Errors can be forgiven, but a string of deliberate attacks & insults -- never. </p>
<p>Here's my interpretation after reading your post: teacher writes a nice rec, then you say it got lost, teacher is peeved. The behavior expected from you is abject apology, groveling, promises to be more careful, begging for one more chance, etc. Instead (to her admittedly twisted way of thinking) you followed up carelessness with a graver sin, that of daring to question her by insisting that the letter was lost by someone else. Anyone who would CALL the summer school to verify you were lying to her is taking things more than a little too far, don't you think? She thought you had called her a liar, and was determined to put you in her place. Finding out she might be wrong didn't calm her, it just ticked her off more. The facts be damned!</p>
<p>And not only did you dare to question her, it just got worse when you rubbed her nose in it by proving her wrong with the apology from the summer school. I think the teacher is a little off her rocker, but put yourself in her shoes for a second. In her warped view, you first questioned her judgement and then followed up by proving her wrong. And not only prove her wrong. Oh no, it gets worse still! You copied the letter to the GC so now she has lost face to boot. I would bet she thinks you deliberately set out to humiliate her, and this cannot be excused or forgiven.</p>
<p>This might be a so-called "teachable moment" for your DD, BTW, in which you remind her that everyone's actions makes perfect sense at least to them.</p>
<p>To me, what you did is perfectly reasonable. You didn't lose the letter, you didn't "confess" to something you didn't do, and finally you vindicated yourself in the face of unjustified accusations with the letter from the summer school. Rational, assertive behavior. But to this teacher's point of view, you repeatedly and persistently attacked & insulted her both personally and later in public. This woman is poison, and she is the LAST person I think you should ask for a rec.</p>
<p>This might not work, but here goes. If I knew and trusted the guidance counselor, I'd ask for 3 recomms (not just 2) and ask them to give to GC, so everything can go out in one package. I'd ask GC to review and send the best 2 of the 3.
Carolyn, I wouldn't rule out that teacher. She's obviously put some thought into the recomm, and it is already on her computer. She could revise and add in the newest class by Oct. Especially if it goes to GC to be sent, the GC can warn you if it is off the mark.</p>
<p>Boxcar, I understand what your are saying. That is why I also wrote, "I would make sure to obtain all the recommendation letters as early as possible."</p>
<p>There is really no reason to wait for the last minute. Most application packets are available by the time school starts. One of the issues that bother teachers is that students wait until the last days to make their requests. If all possible, I would contact the teachers as early as possible to discuss the recommendation letters. This is also a good time to bring some material to support and document your viewpoint on the recommendation. If you have an example of a great letter or of a bad letter, show it to the teacher. You may even consider buying a book of one the former admission officers who wrote about the subject, and offer the book as a small token of your appreciation. I would also make sure to have a file that contains a listing of the school and EC activities. It may not hurt to have a transcript also -if you feel it helps the teacher to see the whole picture. You CANNOT assume that the teachers have a perfect recollection of every student. In other words, do everything to make the job of the teacher easy. In turn, explain how you would like to send your application as soon as possible. If needed, explain that some schools have rolling admissions and that you want to send the applications as early as possible. </p>
<p>As far as getting a lukewarm letter back, starting the process as early as possible will increase the opportunities to seek another teacher. A better alternative would be to ask 3 teachers if you needed two letters. </p>
<p>This may not work at every school, but remember that the early bird gets the worm.</p>
<p>carolyn. Run. Away. Far, far away.</p>
<p>I'd like to respond to this thread from the opposite perspective. I am often asked to write recommendations for medical students applying to residency programs and for residents applying to fellowship programs. I am at times flabbergasted when asked to write some recommendations...I've had the student for maybe 4 or 5 days on a clinical rotation and they ask for one (maybe because I DON'T really know them and their fallibilities?). For medical students, recommendations (and all application materials) are sent to a central organization which distributes them to the programs, so all programs see the same letter. On the front of the form, the student must check off whether or not they waive the right to see the recommendation. From this perspective, I have the following comments as a "recommender":</p>
<p>1) I wouldn't like it if I was asked if I could provide a "good" recommendation. This would imply to me that the student might be trying to hide something from the school. I LIKE it if the student asks if I have time in my busy schedule to write a recommendation for him/her (gives me an easy out). If I truly feel that I cannot write a good recommendation, I tell the student that I don't feel I can do a good job for him/her because...usually my time is too limited to do a good job. They then have the option of finding someone else.</p>
<p>2) I also won't write recommendations for students who don't waive the right to see their recommendation. Same reason. I don't want to waste my time writing a recommendation that never gets submitted. That said, I always send a duplicate copy of the recommendation that I write to the student, even if I express reservations. In reality, there's a "lingo" that signals to the reader that there is concern about the student usually ending with something like "If I can provide any additional information to you about student XXXX, please give me a call."</p>
<p>3) I request a resume (called a CV or curriculum vitae for academics) before I will begin writing if the student didn't bring one with him/her at the time of the request. The best students bring one with the form and a stamped/addressed envelope at the time of the request, or they e-mail me with the request and an offer to drop off the rest if I agree to write one. I may call the student for clarification if I want to include parts of it in the letter.</p>
<p>4) Carolyn, steer clear of this teacher. Most likely, the letter will read "XXXX is bright, excellent student, overall good person. With some improvement in her organizational skills, she should do a good job at your Dream U." Get my point?</p>
<p>Thanks everyone. It helps to have confirmation of my gut instincts. Daughter today said she thinks the French teacher might actually be a good choice - not only has she had D. for 3 years (and a 4th year next year), she is the advisor to the French Club which daughter has been very active in over the past few years. We'll see how it goes --- I will discuss this behind the scenes with the guidance counselor and see what she suggests.</p>
<p>Carolyn- yikes!!! That teacher sounds a bit manic to me...Is D having her as a teacher? Hopefully, the summer will calm her down. My Ds have both had a similar type teacher in Junior High...made it very difficult- we had a very odd situation with her, and she still won't look at me. I smile at her, say hi, wave, but get the bare minimum back for a response. I just learned to play her. Flatter her. Be really nice. Compliment her. Made it a game. She thinks I like her. Nope, but I needed to pretend in order to get through it. With my Ds, I just said, be nice, do your best, and if she treats you unfairly (which she did) I will deal with it.</p>
<p>Quiltguru, your points are well taken, and I used to think in a very similar wayt. However, there is a HUGE difference: this is a high school. The purpose of the exercise is to obtain a POSITIVE letter of recommendation. I believe that it is fair for the student -and the parents- to know if a teacher might have a few ,,, reservations before the letter is written. </p>
<p>This is not very different from a situation described in an old post on CC. A student named IlCapo was asked by a classmate to write a supporting letter. His intention was to write a letter that would, in so many words, say that the student was not a great match for the school. </p>
<p>Nobody is advocating for a teacher to write a dishonest letter, but politely declining the request of a "so-so" candidate seems to be a better option.</p>
<p>xiggi - I do agree with your opinion about the waiver -- although I have to note that quiltguru says that she does provide the student with a copy of the recommendation separately -- I think when my son applied to colleges that was the procedure followed. </p>
<p>I also think that gut feeling is important. My daughter needed rec. letters for her high school application, but they weren't supposed to be confidential. I don't want to get into details, but she had bad feelings about a particular teacher who "volunteered" to write a letter when she was trying to ask a different teacher; the volunteer thought the letter was confidential, and it was very nasty and definitely did not ring true, and clearly intended to undermine her efforts; fortunately the letter was not used. </p>
<p>My son's teachers wrote wonderful letters of rec. for his college apps. They were not empty praise - my son has a strong and quirky personality, and each teacher related separate anecdotes that really gave a good sense of what he's like. Seeing those letters I could see the value of recommendation letters - but I could also see why they don't need to be confidential. The detail in the letters showed they were quite genuine - and at the same time there was nothng that needed to be hidden. For example, the science teacher related why he had selected my son as one of a handful of students to participate in a certain event, and how my son had responded to that opportunity. </p>
<p>I do think that its helpful to let teachers know what is needed. Some colleges in their admissions material make clear that they are looking for specific qualities, and there is no harm in asking the teacher to be sure that the letter covers those topics. For example, if a college is clearly looking for "leadership" - a teacher could be reminded of that. </p>
<p>Carolyn -- I think a French teacher who has known your daughter for 4 years can be a great choice. I know colleges really like to see kids stick with a language for 4 years, so you have the double benefit of a nice letter that is also a reminder of a strength in the academic transcript.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I thought this over and my inclination would be to go with the history teacher for the recommendation. It sounds like she's a little off-balance personally, but it doesn't sound like she'd do anything willfully to hurt your daughter in a written recommendation. Your experience with the summer program recommendation appears to bear this out.</p>
<p>As a separate but related issue, this teacher sounds slightly off her rocker. I know it's easier to give advice than take it in situations like this, but I would advise both you and your daughter to keep a respectable distance from her on personal matters. It seems that she can handle professional student/parent/teacher relationships okay, but has difficulty drawing the line when things start to move toward the personal arena. In otherwords, keep it professional. </p>
<p>My son had a couple of these charismatic, but highly emotional, teachers. Their personalities were both their strengths and their weaknesses. They were teachers whom he learned a lot from, but could never seem to satisfy their high standards. Once he -- and we -- realized that their reactions were not always logical we were better able to deal with their inconsistencies but along the way there were some chilling moments. </p>
<p>Now, have I totally contradicted myself and scared you away from using this teacher as a recommender? To me she still seems like a good recommender but a bad mentor. I seem to be having trouble staying with the same opinion from the beginning to the end of this post so maybe the French teacher IS a better option. :)</p>
<p>
LOL. Momrath, By coincidence, you have unintentionally done a remarkable job of describing my personal posting "style". I rarely know where I'm going till I get there.;) "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."Thanks for the A.M. chuckle.</p>
<p>Momrath,
Yes, this teacher is a bit out of the ordinary. She places incredible demands on her students, especially in her AP Euro class. Still, my daughter did learn something very important about herself from taking that class --- and that is why she has willingly signed up for another year with this teacher for Honors Asian Studies. (My son is also going to be taking Asian Studies). </p>
<p>Most of the other teachers in the school kind of roll their eyes when her name is mentioned --- there is some resentment at how she demands students put her class first, before all others. D. said that she thinks this will blow over as she has seen the teacher react the same way with other kids to seemingly insignificant issues. </p>
<p>But I think your point is well taken --- keep things on the professional level and see what happens. In the meantime, D. said last night that she is thinking that asking her French teacher might not be a bad idea at all But, we'll see how it all plays out.</p>
<p>""Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." </p>
<p>Actually the statement by Emeson was "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" which gives it a bit different shading.</p>
<p>Carolyn, the big problem may not be that this teacher will give a poor recommendation -- but that if the recommendations are submitted confidentially, you will never know. It will be a source of anxiety throughout the application process. So even if you do use that teacher, I would suggest doing so only if, as Xiggi suggests, you will be seeing a copy of the letter before it is submitted.</p>
<p>Each spring there is always some very strong student posting on these boards who inexplicably gets rejected or waitlisted everywhere. Maybe that is simply bad luck, but I always suspect that there is something negative in one of the letters that is at the heart of it. I mean, if an ad com reads something from a teacher who seemed equivocal or who expressed reservations about a student - that may be enough to undermine everything else. So I do think that these letters are very important. Sometimes even a friendly teacher can go overboard and volunteer information better left unmentioned. </p>
<p>Also - the problem you have with the disappearing rec. letter happened to us more than once when my son was applying to colleges, with letters only going to about 4 or 5 colleges. But with the staggered deadlines and differences in the way colleges handled paperwork, my son did have to ask teachers to resubmit their letters. Maybe at some schools the GC can handle that part -- but my point is that the same problem may come up again. How is this teacher going to react the second time around?</p>
<p>mikemac, I wasn't quoting EmeRson. I was quoting my butcher, Pete Norville from Pete's Parts. I can understand your confusion though, as they are very similar quotations.</p>
<p>the problem you have with the disappearing rec. letter happened to us more than once when my son was applying to colleges... my point is that the same problem may come up again. How is this teacher going to react the second time around? >></p>
<p>Calmom,
Yes, this is also part of my worry. This is a teacher that writes many recommendations every year (one year she told me she had written 95 recommendations) so it is hard for me to believe that she has never had a recommendation not arrive where it should in the past. This is another reason why I felt her reaction was so out of context. I can understand her being annoyed that she had to print the rec out again (remember she specifically told my daughter when she gave her the rec that she had saved it in her computer for "next year") but to call the school and complain to them seems like over-reaction. Based on the way the summer program director reacted to that phone call, I would HATE to have this teacher calling around to schools during the real admissions process.</p>
<p>In a case that I wrote about previously, I found out that one of our school's matriculants at an HYP school went to see their admission folder in hopes of gaining some insight that might help a younger sibling. What they gained was insight into why they had been intitially deferred. The admissions rep had responding to their inquiry by saying "well, it never hurts to have more letters of recommendation."</p>
<p>Turned out that the teacher who wrote one of the letters had written a "faint praise" letter, that essentially indicated that the student was not anything unusually special. [This was quite stunning to the student when the letter was viewed in the file, since the teacher had actually proposed that he(the teacher) write the letter for the student.] That letter in the admissions file had a big red "X" drawn through it, which must have happend after the student supplied additional references in response to the admissions rep's advice after the deferal. </p>
<p>In any case, when it comes to the most competitive schools, or even those less competitive at which your stats make you just average, I don't think you can be too careful on your recommendations. Any less than glowing comments are interpreted negatively. Its viewed as code for having some problem. Xiggi's advice is good here, although I wonder practically speaking how many places would agree to show you their letters.</p>
<p>
That is interesting, since my daughter also had a problem recommendation from a teacher "volunteer". (See my post #31). In my daughter's case, she was suspicious from the start, since she had a gut level feeling that the teacher didn't like her. </p>
<p>So I guess another caveat may be that, unfortunately, some teachers are acting in bad faith and have ulterior motives. As important as it is to ask the teacher whether or not he or she feels comfortable making a recommendation, the student also needs to rely on other indicia as to whether that teacher is likely to do so. </p>
<p>Scary, actually.</p>