<p>calmom, that is unbelievable. And sick. And unethical.</p>
<p>True. But it happened. The worst part is that my daughter was highly motivated to do well in that teacher's class - so she always tried extra hard - and the teacher studiously ignored her and snubbed her. She'd come home from class some days crying. Then his letter said something to the extent that she would only do well if she were getting positive feedback and encouragement. So it was clear that he was well aware that his conduct toward her was demoralizing (and it wasn't just because he was busy or distracted). This was a teacher who clearly played favorites, and she wasn't one of them. </p>
<p>But the reality is that, at least in public high schools, there are some teachers who are quite strange. I've also known a few who were quite delightful, but also nut cases -- just nutty in a friendlier way. I would be wary of letters from them as well, as who knows what they would say in a misguided attempt to be helpful.</p>
<p>dadx - what you said is exactly why I said what I said in my opening post and why I am so concerned. Because my son is not unusually special or unique but is overall a well respected person, student and athlete he doesn't "wow" teachers I believe. They are likely to write a good rec but as you point out just O.K. comments can be interpreted as negative or a red flag. I feel badly for my son if this happens to him with his recs.</p>
<p>boxcar, if your son is well-respected and well-liked - the kind of kid that the teachers like but just can't think of much to say about - then your son can help them out by providing a resume of his activities and accomplishments, as well as a short summary of points that the colleges he is applying for might be looking for. In one of my son's letters, the teacher related an anecdote about an incident in the classroom where my son helped another student with an assignment that was so trivial my son didn't remember it. Obviously it was something that had stuck out in teacher's mind - and it made for a good letter. The teacher used that as a "theme" to illustrate the growth he had seen in my son during the 2 years he had been in the classroom. </p>
<p>I think what some teachers may not understand is that, like essays, the best letters show rather than tell, using details and specific incidents to get the point across to highlight an area of strength. To me, "well-respected" is a great strength, though the adjective might not do much to get the point across. But some incidents illustrating why your son has earned that respect might be very compelling.</p>
<p>Thanks calmom. That is very helpful and what you say makes a lot of sense. As a matter of fact when he had to fill out his application for NHS and everything was down on paper from varsity sports, part time employment, a few clubs, a huge community service proect he did(was not required), and many other things, it actually looked very impressive. I will strongly suggest my son do this. I am just not sure he will, given that he is a bit intimidated by this teacher but hopefully he will agree that it makes a lot of sense. It is ineresting that my older son (just finished freshman year) had this same teacher write a rec and I can be pretty certain that because he had the utmost respect of the entire school community and the town because of his achievements in his EC, the rec this teacher wrote would speak about those unique qualities and talents. The rec would not be ordinary. Son #2 has found his own niche, and a wonderful one it is but he is still lives in the shadow of his brother. He has coped with it amazingly and accepted it but I can't help but think teachers might have difficulty seeing son #2 for all that he is.</p>
<p>Years ago, I can remember choosing my recommenders, and one was a physics teacher who was also an assistant in the sport that I did, ......and physics was my best subject, where I was able to acheive a very high score on the acheivement test. That one was easy.</p>
<p>For my second one, I chose a history teacher who was an enthusiastic football coach, and who I thought was positively disposed towards me. It would never have occured to him to use the letter to show the college what an experienced, tough, insightful judge of academic potential he was.... because he didn't see himself that way. I think he probably wrote the letters with the idea that "Wow, I get a chance to help this guy get into a truly remarkable school". I recall that I did well in his class, but I suspect there were others who did as well. I also suspect that none of them chose this particular teacher to write for them, and that he was glad to help me. </p>
<p>Its a real tricky operation to make this work correctly, and at a number of schools, the letters are a prime way that they make distinctions among people. Its a shame to have someone who is supposed to help wind up moving your file into the "Big Pile". Good luck.</p>
<p>I was wondering what everyone thought about submitting a second letter of recommendation from a teacher from a different subject or non-core class? Most schools only ask for one teacher recommendation and I have heard/read that it is bad to submit more than what is asked for. So, do you think doing this would automatically kill your application do you think or might it overcome the possibility of a weaker primary recommendation?</p>
<p>Dadx, Something you said in your last post caught my eye: "I also suspect that none of them chose this particular teacher to write for them, and that he was glad to help me."</p>
<p>Opinions please: do you think that sometimes it can be a mistake to ask one of the "popular" teachers for a recommendation? You know the teachers I'm talking about - the ones that everyone likes because they're so cool or nice and therefore everyone assumes that these same teachers will write great recommendations? Could it be that these types of teachers, who get asked to write so many recommendations, might not be your best choice? I'm wondering whether someone who is asked to write 20 or 30 or even 50 recommendations may have a harder time doing a good job of making every student shine because they have a larger pool of students to write about? Any thoughts?</p>
<p>And, a related question: if you know someone from your high school will be applying to the same college(s) as you, is it worth asking potential recommendation teachers if they will also be writing rec's for that person?</p>
<p>"I have heard/read that it is bad to submit more than what is asked for"</p>
<p>Most schools will accept additional recommendation. The only one that I heard of being very restrictive about extras is Stanford.(they require 2 letters from core teachers, and allow an additional one from a person of your choice, but anything more then that gets thrown away).</p>
<p>Carolyn, there are pros & cons. My son asked his 11th grade science teacher, whom he liked very much, to write a recommendation - this was a very young man who was also a new teacher. At my son's school, there was also a very well respected teacher with a doctorate, who taught the most advanced science classes - my son actually took both chemistry & physics from the Ph.D. during senior year, and did fine -- but he felt the jr. year science teacher knew him better. I'm sure that most kids would have asked the Ph.D.; in fact, I think my son's teacher told him that it was the first time he had ever been asked to write a recommendation. </p>
<p>The good part was that my son received a very nice and praise-filled letter. The bad part was that the teacher didn't mail off the letters in time, lost the preaddressed envelopes & stamps we had given him, and basically had to be nagged repeatedly for the letters. This didn't phase my son, who kind of expected as much from the particular teacher (who apparently was organizationally-challenged) -- but it certainly drove me nuts. The other negative was that Mr. New Science Teacher's writing and spelling skills weren't the best. He was a terrific science teacher -- just more of a hands on kind of guy who didn't do so well with paperwork. </p>
<p>So I would say that there is an advantage to using a less-used, less-busy teacher -- but that such teachers need to be trained up to the task.</p>
<p>My son sent an additional recommendation to all but Stanford. I think that the guiding principle in sending an extra one is whether that person would shed some new light on the student that the original teachers/gc would not be in the position to know about. I think what schools do not want is repetitive material.</p>
<p>Some students have all the letters sent to their GC to review, they may get 4 letters and then ask the GC which 2 they recommend for a certain school. They have explained it to their teachers saying the GC is helping them with which recs would best fit certain programs. That way even though the student is not reading the recs the GC can weed out a bad one. My D used 2 recs from her senior year AP teachers and 1 from junior year. She did have one of her senior teachers junior year but he did not like her as much junior yr. When he found out how motivated she was senior year, he became her biggest fan and helped her a lot. Good luck!</p>
<p>I believe that Xiggi's earlier point regarding terminology is spot-on...
even well-intentioned teachers may not undestand that calling a student a 'diligent' worker is faint praise to a highly competitive school; however, such a description would be excellent for a job recommendation.</p>
<p>1) Anyone have any suggestions on how a student could provide a list of terms on how they'd rather be described, (to guide the teacher's thinking), perhaps under the heading: "My Friends Think I'm...."'</p>
<p>2) Anyone remember where on cc that magic word list is? Can we resurrect the thread (or start a new one) and ask the mods to sticky it?</p>
<p>Bluebayou, here's the link to the "magic word" thread started by Curmudgeon; I hope this is the one you were remembering: </p>
<p>My daughter is a rising senior, and what we're going to do to help the teachers write recs is provide a resume, using headers with the "right" sort of words. We're still working on it, but some of the categories are going to be "leadership and initiative" and "commitment to the arts" (obviously that one is specific to my daughter). In addition, my daughter's GC is new to this whole process, and since we both have a good relationship with her, I'm probably going to tell her outright some of the lessons learned from here on CC. </p>
<p>Hope this helps...</p>
<p>I think it really depends on the college-my son applied ED to Columbia, which requires 2 teacher recs (1 from a humanities teacher-he asked his AP English teacher), and one from a math or science teacher-he asked his chemistry teacher from 10th grade, because in 11th he took physics (he got an "A", but barely) with an absolute nut who left the school after 1 year, and in 12th there were no more science courses to take, plus it was early October. His AP Calc teacher adores him, but is VERY "eccentric"-my S wasn't sure what he might say. Altho my S waived, both these teachers gave him separate copies to read. As to "supplemental" recs, as my son attends a dual focus pre-conservatory arts/academic high school, and as theatre is his main commitment and passion, he also had his drama teacher and his a theatrical director who had worked with him for 3 summers in an intensive summer theatre program send written recs. He was accepted ED to Columbia, whose rule of thumb is not to send recs that just tell them more of what thewy already know, but tio send recs that illuminate other aspects of the atudent that mught not be addressed by the required recs, which was true in my son's case. I would recommend doing some sleuthing with the Admissions Office and GC to determine if, and which, additional recs to submit. Good luck!</p>
<p><<<rule of="" thumb="" is="" not="" to="" send="" recs="" that="" just="" tell="" them="" more="" what="" thewy="" already="" know,="" but="" tio="" illuminate="" other="" aspects="" the="" atudent="" mught="" be="" addressed="" by="" required="" recs,="">></rule></p>
<p>This is probably true at all schools, Columbiamom. And it helps me a great deal!</p>
<p>The second recommendation I am thinking about for my daughter would be from her art teacher. Her art teacher has had her for two years, knows her and her commitment to her art very well, and knows her on a more personal basis than her other teachers. She actually also has a pretty good sense of daughter's academic skills as daughter has written several in-depth research papers for her. </p>
<p>But, obviously, art is not considered a "core" subject and thus she couldn't write the main recommendation. My daughter will be stressing her art-related activities in her application, will be including slides of her best work, and will be applying for art merit awards at 3 of her 5 schools. She isn't applying as an art major, however (although will probably end up doing an art minor). Any feedback on whether I'm off target thinking that a supplemental recommendation from the art teacher is a good idea?</p>
<p>Hi, Carolyn, unless the college specifically forbids or strongly discourages sending addtl recs, I think a suppl ltr from the art teacher emphasizing those aspects could be very helpful, esp at a more selective school where a special talent/ability would help an applicant stand out-I think it definitely helped my S, esp since the drama teacher and director emphasized not only his acting, but his strong technical theatre skills, passion, dedication, and leadership in helping his fellow thespians do their best work....</p>
<p>Thanks columbiamom! That really helps.</p>
<p>Well thought I would let you all know how talking to my son tonight about recs went over. I decided I should bring it up to him since tomorrow is the last day of school and then there are finals and his English teacher told the students to come to her before the end of school if they want her to consider writing a rec for them. As soon as I brought up that I want to talk to him about college stuff his eyes roll and he looks like he wants to say, " will you please stop bugging me about college stuff." And then I made the mistake of mentioning to him that I brought this subject up on CC and he rolled his eyes even more and sighed, thinking " would you get a life, those people are obsessed." He thinks I take this whole college thing way too seriously and of course feels as though I should just "chill more." As I told him my suggestions he told me Mrs. T (english teacher) beat me to it and that she has a whole packet, an application students have to fill out in order for her to even consider doing a rec for them. She asks all different questions to get to know more about the student, where they are applying, why, what they intend to study,etc. He also told me he knows neither the student or GC will see her recs. Sign, sealed and delivered. My son did agree to go to GC tomorrow and tell her who he is thinking of asking for recs and ask her opinions. As soon as I started to bring up anything about the importance of the rec, he told me "well my understanding from the tours we went on that recs are not all that important." So, this was the end of the discussion. He couldn't wait for me to be done talking to him about this! He grabbed a chocolate chip cookie headed in the other room to study for finals. So for now that is the end of this discussion probably til next year.</p>
<p>
On a suggestions from a counselor, my son assembled two packages, one for each of his major EC's. One of the schools that he was considering, Amherst, designated that the art slides should be accompanied by a short statement, a resume and a recommendation from an art teacher. So since he had to prepare all this for this one college, he did so for all. Since art portfolios usually go to the college's art department for evelauation, I think the art teachers comments are a good addition.</p>
<p>For his second EC package which focused on Boy Scouts, he also included a recommendation from his Scout Master. Because the recommender was a Phd and an instructor at a top university we couldn't resist including it, but I think, realistically that these are the kind of personal recommendations that are less meaningful.</p>
<p> [quote=boxcar] As soon as I started to bring up anything about the importance of the rec, he told me "well my understanding from the tours we went on that recs are not all that important."
Maybe recommendations are less important at large universities with thousands of applicants, but I'd say at the smaller LACs, especially those that don't interview, recommendations are taken very seriously.</p>