<p>If you listen to physicians complain about their working conditions and salary/reimbursement, you would think things are really bad. I guess soon there will be no physicians because of these work condition and salary issues. Wrong of course. Before any of us feel too sorry it might be a good idea to look at salary survey data. The bottom salaries are for family practice physicians who still make a national average of almost $200K. Specialists do much better with many specialties averaging $300-$500K/year. Again these are salaries for salaried physicians. Expenses including liability insurance are paid by the employer. Many physicians do not want to work on a salaried basis. No surprise, if they have any business sense and focus on income they can make very substantially more money than a salaried physician. For most of us those incomes of many hundreds of thousands or a million plus/year sound pretty good. So why do so many physicians complain bitterly? I think it has something to do with a thwarted sense of entitlement. They want on the gravy train beginning on day one but instead have to get by for many years of medical school and advanced training. Then there is the working conditions complaint. Sure none of us like managed care and would like to see alternatives. Having to deal with insurance companies is really tough on physicians. If they weren't born with a god-like opinion of themselves, they quickly develop this during their medical training. I hate to break the bad news, but most of the rest of us non-physicians often have to deal with bad bosses, frustrating organizations, government regulations and most of the time no one even cares. We are expected to suck it up and do our jobs or we are on the street in a hurry. We are expected to have a positive attitude even when the company is planning a merger which will end our jobs.</p>
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I hate to break the bad news, but most of the rest of us non-physicians often have to deal with bad bosses, frustrating organizations, government regulations and most of the time no one even cares.
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<p>Fine, but I wouldn't be affected if you lost your job. However, I need my physician to take care of my health. Don't compare your job with that of a health care professional.</p>
<p>The bottom salaries are for family practice physicians who still make a national average of almost $200K. </p>
<p>I can't help but wonder where this figure comes from. Does this include benefits? I know a lot of primary care docs, albeit , mostly in N and S Cal, and mostly staff model, but unless they work in a prison, I'd be GUESSING ( after consulting with my H who hires for his FP department) more like $170. Now that is still good money, and I STILL haven't changed careers, I'm just wondering what and where this figure includes since I suspect the bulk of doctors will ( or should) end up in primary care.</p>
<p>For the purposes of this forum I would also like to add "WE" have still not paid off all the school debt and can't quite figure out if we can pay for D to go to private college and still retire before this whole thing falls apart.</p>
<p>I'm fascinated to hear that all doctors are crushed by huge debt, can't have kids until they are 30, and live in rented hovels.</p>
<p>The doctors I went to college with are all wealthy, managed to have up to four children during training without sacrificing anything careerwise--yes, the doctor had the children, not the doctor's wife--and have no problem affording more than one million dollar home and/or building new mansions on large acreage in wealthy communities. </p>
<p>But yes, they do complain about uninsured people using the emergency room inappropriately and how much they dislike managed care.</p>
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If you listen to physicians complain about their working conditions and salary/reimbursement, you would think things are really bad. I guess soon there will be no physicians because of these work condition and salary issues. Wrong of course. Before any of us feel too sorry it might be a good idea to look at salary survey data. The bottom salaries are for family practice physicians who still make a national average of almost $200K.
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<p>Let's say a person who spent 8 years in intensive education, 3 years of training working 80+ hours a week at a pay of $35-$40K per year with an average debt of $150K. How much compensation does she/he deserve?
I have never seen a salary data that states family practice physicians make a national average of almost $200K. That's too high. Perhaps $130-$150K, but that is still a long way off from $200K. And the workweek is nothing short of 60+ hours. The average engineer in silicon valley makes more than that.</p>
<p>I almost dread reading these posts. Nobody wants to hear doctors complain and I can understand that. I certainly do not have a sense of "entitlement" but many of my patients do. I was tired this morning because I got home at 5 in the morning from the hospital after a delivery. At almost 50 yrs. old the nights are getting harder and harder. You don't see that I and most doctors have already given up more than half of our old incomes in order to abide by insurers reimbursements, pay malpractice and our staff. We are keeping up our "annual incomes in the range of 180 to 200,000$ per year by increasing our patient load, giving up much of our free time and by moonlighting in overnight shifts at hospitals, etc. I'm sure all of you have seen how busy your doctors office has become. We, the physicians have sacrificed enough of ourselves, time away from family and our own health in order to continue to practice. Most hospital employed physicians do not make high salaries either and have sacrificed their own ability to "be their own boss" which was once the appeal of being a physician. I guess we have seen our incomes coming down over the past 5 yrs and there is no sign that this is not going to continue. When my malpractice goes over 200,000$ in July, many OB's in NY will be stopping delivering babies. On Tuesday, March 4th, many doctors are going to Albany, Ny to protest the rising malpractice but in the past the state goverment has refused to do anything. You will see that in years to come the quality and number of primary physicians will be less. Like I said before, us 40 to 50 yr olds are still working but the young doctors are going to have a hard time paying back their education and I feel for them. I was not in that position . Sorry, most people who are not doctors don't get it because the doctors have been protecting their patients from this up to now. But we are scared for the future because there is no end in sight. I truly hope things do get better because my husband and I want good doctors to take care of us!</p>
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The doctors I went to college with are all wealthy, managed to have up to four children during training without sacrificing anything careerwise--yes, the doctor had the children, not the doctor's wife--and have no problem affording more than one million dollar home and/or building new mansions on large acreage in wealthy communities.
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<p>Those who graduated from medical schools before 1970's were able to make some money before managed care took hold in 1990's. If they became wealthy, they made their money through good investments, not with the money they actually made.</p>
<p>dbreeze, you're wrong. These people graduated from medical school in the 80s.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind, the physicians on this forum seem to be in mostly primary care. Admittedly, they do get a raw deal in terms of compensation per hours worked. That's why fewer and fewer US graduates are going into gen surgery and primary care (their spots are being filled by FMG's/IMG's and DO's). But, other specialties exist and those physicians, on average, may share different views. An OB/Gyn cannot speak for a dermatologist.</p>
<p>Despite all of this, it seems that every other kid who goes to UCLA and UCSD plans to be a doctor.</p>
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dbreeze, you're wrong. These people graduated from medical school in the 80s.
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OK, but you really don't know where their money came from. Family wealth? Good investments?
I'd bet unless they are plastic surgeons or dermatologists or radiologists, it's hard to be living that kind of lifestyle. </p>
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That's why fewer and fewer US graduates are going into gen surgery and primary care (their spots are being filled by FMG's/IMG's and DO's)
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<p>You are right. Our primary care doctors in town are no longer accepting new Medicare patients because the reimbursements don't cover their expenses,so unless you have supplemental insurance, you are out of luck.</p>
<p>I just hope when I get Medicare, I can find one who'll take me.</p>
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Despite all of this, it seems that every other kid who goes to UCLA and UCSD plans to be a doctor
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These are generally offsprings of new immigrants who still remember that in their old country, the medical profession was high paying and prestigious.</p>
<p>^^No kidding. EVERY med school I applied to this year reported record numbers of apps.</p>
<p>Speaking of Medicare, I've heard that it's in the middle of the road in terms of reimbursement. I guess not?</p>
<p>It depends on if it's "straight" medicare, and if not, who is "managing" it. I think a lot of the next ten years will depend on picking the right specialty and the right location. What is scarier for this "old timer" ( graduated in '84) is what will happen once the system is "fixed". I can only speak my specialy but what irritates me is how mental health has evolved, and there is a lot of pressure to prescribe medicine over more time consuming treatments. Great for MD's ( where PhD don't prescirbe), but I think it's an example of being short sighted and manipulated by managed care and the pharmaceutical industry.</p>
<p>dbreeze, these are people whom I know very well. I DO know where their money came from. No family wealth. No fabulous investments. Just two doctors making well in excess of $500,000 per year at their highest level of income a few years ago. (I know that one of them--yes, a radiologist--was making $300,000 working three days a week, and I'm being very conservative in assuming that the other was making the same or less working a full schedule.)</p>
<p>You should see the doctor's McMansions within a quarter mile of my house. There's a whole cluster of them. And those guys are probably early fifties at the oldest.</p>
<p>Sweeet!. So....what are me and H doing wrong?!?!.Oh yeah.....primary care...Procedures....Note to self; must incorporate procedures..</p>
<p>^Unfortunately, that's one of the things that's wrong w/ our healthcare system. There's no emphasis on preventative medicine (which is what family med and internists would excel at) and compensation is procedure-based. I talked about that w/ my WashU Med interviewer, an internist, and we talked about the battle b/w surgeons, cardiologists, and interventional radiologists over who gets to do angioplasties. The doctor who does the most procedures wins out.</p>
<p>I would say that Consolation's anecdotes are just as valid as the ones we've heard on this forum. There are rich doctors just as there are undercompensated ones.</p>
<p>I know of a Psychiatrist who makes butt loads doing "Spect Scans". Patients love it. They better because it's cash only and usually not reimbursable because of it's very iffy evidence base.</p>
<p>I know a recent MD grad got a job that pays $250K-$350K for anesthesiologist(sp?). The salary varies depend on rural or city in CA. This is after so many years in training.</p>
<p>My young family practictioner(about 30ish) charged $130 for 1 hour checkup(from the insurance bill). Plus, you need to factor in overhead, so that comes out to be more or less $200K at most. Most doctors can't be sick, I know when my last check up, he was somewhat sick(that got me to think what would doctors do if they are sick). Regular employee can call in sick but he can't. Yet he has to deal with lots of sick people. This same doctor left my husband a voicemail at 1:00 A.M about his blood test(so he must not sleep at all and have to be up everyday at 9:00 A.M, somewhat brutal).
In addition, I checked his background, he graduate Summa Cumm Laude of the top 100 US News. He told me he studied all the time in Medical school because we were mentioning SAD(Seasonal affect disorder). Delayed earnings and lots of sacrifice for making less than $200K is not a lot of money.</p>
<p>"charged $130 for 1 hour checkup"</p>
<p>But I bet that's more than he got....</p>
<p>Yes that's why I said the upperbound is $200K.</p>