<p>I'm an undergrad at Wharton, and I'm thinking about law school (definitely not sure about it, just wondering). From what I've read on CC, most schools only care about your LSAT and your GPA. They say that its a formula and that I should just focus on my GPA and LSAT and nothing else. But if that were true, wouldn't the people with the top stats all just go to HYS and people with lesser scores would go to other T-14 schools? Instead, we see that a lot of people with 175+ and 3.9+ stats go to NYU (a great law school, no doubt, but not HYS). On the other hand, we have people with comparatively low LSAT's or GPA's at Yale. Are there other factors at play (i.e. EC's, research, letters of recommendation), or could I just plug in a GPA and LSAT score and see where I could go? Please provide examples, if you have them! </p>
<p>The factor you’re forgetting is cash. A school lower down will buy better scores by offering a merit scholarship for some portion of tuition. Plenty of people are happy to take a full ride at Cornell than pay full freight at Columbia. </p>
<p>Demosthenes hit the nail on the head with scholarships. HYS doesn’t give merit money (correct me if I’m wrong), but CCN does. Hence the reason for a lot of 175+/3.9x’ers with dreams of BigLaw attending those three. Cornell, GULC, and other lower ranking members of the T14 are the same in this regard, but some students may choose them for personal reasons (close to home, pleasing relatives, etc.). </p>
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<p>Yale and Stanford are the two schools that really take the time to digest a student’s softs. Harvard holds interviews over the phone, but usually just glance at other soft factors. If you don’t have the numbers, have fun at a TTT (or don’t go to law school at all, as many posters would recommend). If you do have the numbers, have somewhat decent soft factors and you’ll get in everywhere. Soft factors cannot save your numbers. Your LSAT and your GPA are the two most important factors in law school admissions (arguably, race is another important factor). </p>
<p><a href=“denimguru | Law School Numbers”>Recently Updated J.D. Profiles | Law School Numbers; - 180, 3.9; Accepted to Columbia and NYU with scholarship. Denied Harvard, but awarded a JS1. Didn’t do well in the interview (according to his note). Probably had incredibly weak softs, but still got into Columbia and NYU with merit money.</p>
<p><a href=“Proud2B19 | Law School Numbers”>Recently Updated J.D. Profiles | Law School Numbers; - 172, 4.18; Accepted to GULC with some money. Denied most other places. As her name suggests, the applicant is 19 years old. Little work experience. Finished UG in 2 years. Notes that her age is the reason for most of her rejections, and rightly so. </p>
<p>One thing you’re probably wondering about, as a student at Wharton, is whether or not an Ivy undergrad will help you in the admissions process. Short answer, it won’t. That’s the general consensus. You’re obviously bright enough to get into Penn, and you probably did well on the SAT, so you should do well on the LSAT. The general consensus on most message boards is that a degree from HYPSM is equivalent to 1 point on the LSAT. </p>
<p>Assuming you have average softs (work experience, letters of rec, all of the other factors you’re thinking about), you should be able to just plug in your numbers and get an extremely accurate prediction. Assuming you have strong softs, you should be able to just plug in your numbers and get an extremely accurate prediction. Assuming you have weak softs, you should be able to just plug in your numbers and get a somewhat accurate prediction. Overall, you’re just going to plug in your numbers and receive a prediction. As long as you’re not a felon or have extenuating circumstances like the 19 year old, your predictions will be fairly accurate. </p>
<p>Thank you so much! That was very informative. A few follow up questions:</p>
<ol>
<li>What is a JS1?</li>
<li>Do you think Wharton will count in that +1 LSAT point or is it strictly HYPSM? </li>
<li>Is there different acceptance rates depending on what kind of law you want to do (corporate, constitutional, etc.)?</li>
<li>How do some people have over a 4.0? The only school I know that awards above a 4.0 is Stanford, which gives a 4.3 for A+'s</li>
<li>Will the business background be an asset or a liability for admission? FYI, I’m considering a dual degree in Penn’s CAS in math or econ.</li>
<li>Do you think the denimguru guy lost it in the interview? or did his resume (i.e. soft skills) lose it for him?</li>
<li>For Yale and Stanford, what kind of soft skills/EC’s are they looking for?</li>
</ol>
<ol>
<li>So, in Harvard Law admissions there’s a phone interview. A JS1 is the first phone call and the interview with Dean of Admissions, Jessica Soban. A JS2 is the phone call to let you know you’re accepted. (Not all applicants are granted interviews; usually, only strong applicants that have a good chance of being admitted will get them. It’s a big deal to be offered one!)<br></li>
<li> Sadly, I don’t think so. Make sure you do your best on the LSAT. As long as the numbers are there, the school’s don’t care. However, Wharton will help after law school if you’re trying to get into BigLaw.</li>
<li>Nope, those are possibilities for talking points during the JS1/other interviews, but those usually won’t be taken into consideration during admission decisions.<br></li>
<li>This is a big one. You have your undergrad GPA, and you have your LSAC GPA. The LSAC recalculates your GPA to a +/- system, where A+=4.33, A=4.0, A-=3.7.<br></li>
<li>Neither. Do whatever you can to get the highest GPA possible.</li>
<li>Personally, I’d guess that he lost it in the interview. He probably had something else going on (little to no work experience combined with other weak softs), and Jessica interviewed him because of his numbers. Had he had a normal interview, he more than likely would have been accepted.<br></li>
<li>Work experience, a great personal statement, excellent recommendations, research, leadership, etc. etc. etc.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>A wealth of information is on (I think I’m allowed to plug this here) TLS. <a href=“http://top-law-schools.com”>http://top-law-schools.com</a> It’s to law school admissions what CC is to undergrad. Amazing resources on there to study for the LSAT as well (including articles written by 180 scorers). </p>
<p>Thank you bluebayou and victory! One last question… I’m hearing the LSAT is pretty important lol. Do you know if scores tend to correlate with SAT scores? I’ve never actually seen an LSAT (i’m an underclassmen still unsure about law)</p>
<p>And FYI Wharton/Penn also awards A+'s (however rarely) that show up on your transcript, but they are just counted as a 4.00 GPA (same as an A). Because most people at Wharton are looking at finance, which as far as i know doesn’t care about the difference, the A/A+ distinction doesn’t really matter… but I’ll be sure to push for the pluses in case I decide to go to law school! Thanks again for your thoughtful responses.</p>
<p>Similar to some colleges. No matter how the college calculates its GPA, LSAC coverts that A+ into a 4.3 when it recalculates your GPA for LS admissions.</p>
<p>Thanks for your help, bluebayou. I’ve taken a look at TLS – great resources! I’ll try to make the most of it. And for parentofpeople, I have thought about a JD/MBA… I know that you basically need some business experience before getting a MBA though, so I don’t know if it would be a good option. If I go to law school, it will likely be right out of UG. Also, I’m just a freshman trying to find some direction through career exploration, so all of this could change haha.</p>
<p>A JDA/MBA is an amazing degree to have, particularly from a top-tier school. </p>
<p>For what gets you into law school: despite what people say on this board, when I was in law school, there were some people who did have lower LSAT scores or the like but that they had some other qualities to them that made up for that. One guy in my class at HLS got only a 166 on the LSAT (back in the days when the HLS average, as per US News, was 169). He had gotten some prize from his undergrad school as the most outstanding graduate, and I think that he was #1 in his class from undergrad. I wouldn’t dismiss the importance of essays and letters of recommendations; they surely count for something.</p>
<p>“One guy in my class at HLS got only a 166 on the LSAT (back in the days when the HLS average, as per US News, was 169).”</p>
<p>If the average was a 169, it would stand to reason that many students got three points below that - that whole concept of “standard deviation” and all. </p>
<p>Surprisingly, at least to me, is that JD/MBA’s are relatively uncommon. Northwestern purportedly has the largest class of dual degrees, with approximately 25. Other top law schools supposedly only have a handful of dual degrees per class…</p>
<p>"“One guy in my class at HLS got only a 166 on the LSAT (back in the days when the HLS average, as per US News, was 169).”</p>
<p>If the average was a 169, it would stand to reason that many students got three points below that - that whole concept of “standard deviation” and all. "</p>