What is an example of a "No Financial Aid for You" Annual Salary?

Paying for College
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@socalmom007 I can relate very much to your situation, we are in a similar boat in a very high cost of living area. Subtract 100k on the salary (but no private schools) but add in two layoffs and some underemployment during the recession and a tax nightmare that we are still paying on related to all of the above. Which for our market is top 5%. Barely. Which seems crazy to us. CRAZY. Take that same salary to the Bay area and we drop to the top 10%. 350K is top 5 for Bay area so pretty comparable. We are most definitely not rolling in it either. Not remotely close.

I know we are in a fortunate position compared to many and I am by no means complaining. We have elected to save for retirement over college when forced to choose between them at critical earning points. For the years we have one child in school we “should” be able to afford 80k annually according to the calculators, the years with 2 kids, 40k. Given the spread of our 4 kids and the overlap, or lack thereof of said 4 kids, that comes out to exactly a million dollars.

No. We don’t have a million dollars saved, nor that kind of cash at the ready, nor that kind of home equity to borrow against. Yes, we have too many kids. We drive old cars (that we hope to have last for another 6 years) , have a pretty standard house for our area (no, not one worth a million dollars or even close) and a similar mortgage payment to yours. We’ve lost financial ground due to divorces and remarriages. Those are choices with financial consquences, it is what it is. That isn’t in any way shape or form complaining, we are fortunate. But we don’t have the cash to be full pay even if we appear so on paper. Nor, do we have, as so many do here…kids with stats that are going to get full rides or huge merit awards, at least not for S17, the current applicant. Or if it is “huge” merit it will be due to a higher/inflated sticker price to start with so the net cost is about the same. Too early to say for S19. Yes. I can give him the option of in state only (which for him is really only one valid option), or a WUE that meet the financial limits we have. I can also tell him his only other options are locations he has no interest in if they meet the financial limits (and that’s not much of anything lol). Those are options. In general, they are not the schools he wants and for the most part, not ones in which he would thrive. I have to consider that. Ok no, I don’t have to. I choose to.

Or, we can hold him to a cap with the understanding that anything over a certain dollar threshold will require him to have skin in the game (loans of his own) as well as us taking out small loans and that there is a secondary cap that will be enforced. I am not at all willing to go beyond in state prices unless he has skin in the game. I will not take out loans if he is not willing to. He will work summers and most likely during the school year. That has always been the deal offered. Since he was 5. The math has been shared. I will pay for the in state flagship (which S17 would be unlikely to get into and is far far too big for him) but any $$ beyond that, they have to have money in the pot. It is his future; I feel he has the right to make that choice and have a say.

Even if we DID have 80k annually per kid, I wouldn’t spend that much on an undergrad degree or take on that kind of debt. From any school or for any kid. That’s crazy talk. What I will say is that at some private schools, (and this goes to the OP’s question) at that 2 kid threshold if in a higher income bracket, there can be a small benefit. In most cases it may mean the ability for the student to qualify for an subsidized loan versus subsidized. In others, a small grant. At the end of the day though, with a very mid (or low by CC standards) stats kid, our goal is to find schools that can come under our EFC at the 2 kid mark and the lower the better but that also give him the greatest chance for success (fit). Anything that doesn’t have that potential is off the list. It means focusing on match and safety schools where he will get some merit. It means no reach schools and the very strong possibility that he will end up at the one in-state public, whether it’s too big for him or not as when push comes to shove, debt free may be worth the risk of falling through the cracks. I covered all costs for my undergrad except for room and board (and that wasn’t covered for year 4). That’s not something kids can do these days but I do think there is a lot to be said for skin in the game.

@NosyCaliparent Loan tolerance is a personal matter and will vary. 35-50k a year? No. 25-50k total for all 4 years? That I can live with if I have to. I’d prefer not to of course. My personal tolerance is my student taking their federally allowed funds, and matching that amount of loans of our own (if needed, we will try to stretch and have that be less on both sides). That’s my personal cap for debt for an undergrad degree, on top of the flagship base costs and at that amount would be something we should be able to get rid of on an expedited timeline. I tend to think of it as the extra car we never bought for the kids to share. The end result is we need schools at or under the 36-38k mark and it is amazing how many come in “just” a tad above. And that’s before factoring in inflation. We managed to pull it off with the oldest just under that amount and the next one, current junior, just over. With those two we have managed to avoid all loans but there was an additional funding source for those two that is not present for the youngers.

The NPC’s are our friend, or not as the case may be, but it does let us know where we stand and information is power.

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“It means no reach schools and the very strong possibility that he will end up at the one in-state public, whether it’s too big for him or not as when push comes to shove, debt free may be worth the risk of falling through the cracks.”

@eandesmom Wow I can’t relate to sending 4 kids to college. I only have 2 and that seems hard but don’t you think every kid should apply to at least one reach school. Now maybe your kid doesn’t want that and that is cool. Doesn’t have to be Harvard(unless his dream school is Harvard) but one school that he would love seeing himself in. My case is different but my oldest had a chance to go to Alabama free or his reach school(which needed loans and the dreaded debt) but he chose the reach and he knew the consequences. Just food for thought.

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Depending on the school, ‘no aid for you’ can be quite low, like $75k. Many schools/states don’t give any need based aid to those not qualifying for Pell grants. At other schools like Stanford or Princeton, the same student who would get nothing need based at State U would get full need met with family income up to $125k.

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@NosyCaliparent UCLA can be around $32K as a freshman according to their COA if you have your own insurance and can waive theirs. Their COA says about $34K including health insurance.
https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

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No…I don’t think every kid should apply to a reach school…and definitely do not think kids should,apply to reach schools that are completely unaffordable to the family. What good is an acceptance to a reach school if the family is not able to pay their calculated family contribution?

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@thumper1 -

I think that a kid can apply to an academic reach but not a financial one. Why allow a child to get his or her hopes up if there’s no chance that the family can afford to send him or her there?

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@twchmom99 I agree…it has to be something that can be paid for.

But every student doesn’t NEED to apply to a reach school. My first kid was a music major and because of the nature of admissions depending on auditions…all of his schools wer admissions reaches. He I only have 2 and that seems hard but don’t you think every kid should apply to at least one reach school.as 6/7 in admissions.

Second kid applied initially to three colleges…all would have been viewed as safety schools based on her stats. Two,were EA and one was rolling, and she had all three acceptances by December 15.

Those three schools continued to be her top choices. She did DD a reach school which she was not accepted to. We all (including her) in retrospect felt it was a waste of time…especially since she already had acceptances from HR top choices.

Her safety choices were perfect choices for her. And she graduated from one of them.

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My kids were very happy without reaches. No regrets, happy with their choices.

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Again…people can complain all they want about their high EFCs, however changing the calculation to get lower EFCs will not magically cause schools/states/Feds to have the money to pay for your kids’ “sleep-away college experience.”

Pretend that hell has froze and I’m in charge…I’ve ordered the FA calculators to cut everyones’ EFCs by 75%. Hurray, you think! Your EFC is now $8k rather than 32k. So what!? 99% of schools won’t magically have the $47k per year to give you so that your child can go where he/she wants.

As Sybbie often says, “Parents are first in line to pay for their kids’ college costs.”

If you want that luxury for your child, then either pay for it or find merit opportunities that will help pay those costs.

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<<<
was shocked at our EFC of $35K and the high all-in cost of our mediocre state colleges (20K-25K/average 4yr grad rate hovering around 50%+) available to our above average kid because Texas is a 10% state. Fall below that hard line and you’ve got UT Dallas and Texas Tech on the public side as the only decent options outside of the unattainable UTA and A&M College Station.


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Mediocre? Texas universities? Certainly UT, TAMU and even UT Dallas are not “mediocre”.

Seriously, what career goals could a very smart student have that couldn’t be well-achieved by attending one of these schools???


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Tough luck that he attended one the highest ranked public schools in the nation and has the chops to attend better than the state has on offer. <<<

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You may have a very smart kid. (What are his stats?) If you feel that he needs to attend “better than the state has to offer,” then be prepared to pay for it. If you can’t afford that, then he can certainly succeed at Texas’ better/best univs.

PS…there are very smart kids, as smart or smarter, attending UT, TAMU and UTDallas…

PSS…the grad rate isn’t relevant. Doing co-op’s, students changing majors, students dropping classes or not wanting to take 8am or 2pm classes, some students working/going part-time, some students not ready for college-level math/English, are often reasons that some students take longer at public schools.

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Folks with $20k+ per year EFCs…

Who do you think should be paying for your child’s choice of college?? Your state? The federal gov’t?

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@mom2collegekids --You make an excellent point that a lower EFC isn’t going to make money suddenly appear. But I think people are just generally in shock that calculators say they can afford so much.

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@thumper1 it all depends on how one defines reach. I have not been able to find an admissions reach that comes in under 38k that is a school my child wants to attend. And that’s ok. He likes all the schools on his list, would be happy to attend any, though happier with some than others. He’d still be happy with any and that’s all that matters. His matches are financial reaches, they rely on merit awards to make them livable stretches. That’s enough risk and risk for me (and for him). It is certainly possible that all are “rejections” based on offers. We’ve tried to mitigate that risk with limiting it only to schools likely to make a workable offer, but you never know until the offer is made. We are content with his list. He will have the choice of his in state safety, a top regional university that is a very solid school with no debt, or contributing out of his own pocket/loans towards any that come in at or under the targets if he must have the LAC experience and/or the OOS experience. While there are many lovely schools admissions wise that might be nice to consider as options, they financially aren’t and that really does make it easy to cut. We aren’t hung up on prestige, we are looking for fit and think we have a workable list and truly do not have the “wish we could apply to xxx” thing going on because we didn’t ever allow ourselves to get invested in those schools.

@mom2collegekids perhaps I missed something but I’ve not gotten (or certainly intended to give) the impression that those that have posted with over 20K EFC’s are “expecting” anyone to pay for anything. I am most certainly not. Rather, the point has been made that what may seem wealthy or flush on the outside doesn’t mean that kind of disposable income exists. For some, merit is a great strategy to help with a “gap”, whether that is a family with a 40k+ EFC who can cannot afford that, or a 10K EFC family that doesn’t have 10K and is unlikely to be offered that much in FA alone. For some, that kind of merit simply isn’t an option based on stats. There tends to be an assumption on CC that most kids should be able to qualify for full tuition or half tuition somewhere and the country is full of kids that are not at that stat level. Their parents are on CC too. All I’ve seen people posting, myself included, is that it means choices are limited. Choices are limited for almost everyone in some ways, whether its admission limitations/reaches or financial. it is what it is. To simply state that as a fact doesn’t mean there is a request, expectation or complaint that someone else isn’t footing the bill.

Do I wish private tuitions weren’t so crazy high? You bet. Do I wish my child had higher stats and qualified for greater merit to increase his options? Sure, you bet. Do I wish I hadn’t been laid off twice and I’d been able to stick to the college savings plan put in place when my kids were very young? Yes, most certainly. That’s not the world that exists and so we navigate around it as best we can, as does everyone here with their own particular circumstances. I still recognize that we are fortunate.

That said, a lower EFC at “some” privates will change the numbers considerably. It is somewhat irrelevant as the EFC will be what it will be but to say that it can’t make money magically appear actually isn’t entirely correct. It could. There is a 3-5k difference at “some” of our list based on whether we have 2 in school or 1 as that does change or EFC. Over 2-3 years that adds up and honestly is a factor for us. For my child to have the option of some subsidized loans versus 100% unsubsidized, is a difference worth noting. At other privates, it won’t change it an iota. It will absolutely not impact federal or state aid.

@ClaremontMom basically the expectation is that 47% of net income is available for college. Regardless of your income bracket, few families have 47% on hand as disposable and many have not saved enough for a variety of reasons, and generally (though not always of course) those reasons aren’t typically that the families were wasteful, or spent a lot on luxuries or lived beyond their means. Sure some have but I would agree that most haven’t done their homework and are really caught off guard. Or had an expectation that their child would go to the flagship, didn’t account for the child not being able to get in. Or being a kid that might be swallowed alive in that kind of environment (and no, honors colleges aren’t for all, nor can all get in lol). You can’t always know how your kids will turn out and what your options will really be.

For those that have been able to, it’s a beautiful thing and one to be proud of. For those who have not, I think it’s helpful if folks reserve judgement.

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<<<
perhaps I missed something but I’ve not gotten (or certainly intended to give) the impression that those that have posted with over 20K EFC’s are “expecting” anyone to pay for anything. I am most certainly not. Rather, the point has been made that what may seem wealthy or flush on the outside doesn’t mean that kind of disposable income exists. For some, merit is a great strategy to help with a “gap”, whether that is a family with a 40k+ EFC who can cannot afford that, or a 10K EFC family that doesn’t have 10K and is unlikely to be offered that much in FA alone. For some, that kind of merit simply isn’t an option based on stats. There tends to be an assumption on CC that most kids should be able to qualify for full tuition or half tuition somewhere and the country is full of kids that are not at that stat level. Their parents are on CC too. All I’ve seen people posting, myself included, is that it means choices are limited. Choices are limited for almost everyone in some ways, whether its admission limitations/reaches or financial. it is what it is. To simply state that as a fact doesn’t mean there is a request, expectation or complaint that someone else isn’t footing the bill.


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People posting here aren’t saying, “Wow, I had no idea that UofX costs $47k per year or that UofZ costs $70k per year. We need to tell Susie that she needs to find schools that cost less than $25k, which is our budget, commute to our local CC or state school, or find schools with merit that will have a $25k (or less) net. Her current list of schools is not affordable.”

If that is what was going on here, then of course it would be understandable that people would be thinking, “gosh, we don’t have that kind of disposable income.”

But, that’s not what’s happening in this thread. There seems to be an understanding of how much the colleges on their child’s list cost, and the irritation is that the calculation expects them to pay $XXXXX amount, which is far greater than what they can pay.

Therefore, the implication is that they know the schools’ costs, AND they know what they CAN pay, so they’re expecting the difference to come from somewhere. If that’s not true, then what are they expecting? Schools to suddenly cut COA’s in half??

Imagine y’all were car shopping. You drive by a dealership with some irresistible-looking luxury cars out front. You’re excited and want one of those beauties!! But, then you see the $85k price. Do you whine that the dealer can’t reasonably expect you to find $XXXX a month out of your budget to buy that car, even if you have a strong income?? (How dare they!!??!! The impertinence! Don’t they realize that we still have to eat!!)

No, you move onto a Hyundai/Toyota/Ford dealerships or Autotrader for used cars and live happily ever after.

:wink:

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I know almost no student wants to hear ‘do a gap year of working to make your college choice affordable’ - but that certainly can be in the mix. Sometimes parents do need to synthesize down what can work - and it does seem best to try to give the student choices that can work for the family.

Up through HS, some parents give away decision making - and some students think they can make some decisions. Not in our household. We had one child that we wanted to attend three years of HS at the private school her older sibling was attending - rather than go to our public HS (we had public MS for 7-8-9 due to specific programs which student benefited from). Could not get student’s desire past parent 1, and parent 2 backed up parent 1, so student knew this was the way it would be. ‘Accepted defeat.’ Student says she ‘hated’ her HS experience, but that made college all the sweeter. She was properly prepared and met the goals for the school scholarships. And close friend at HS is now college room-mate.

Even though students 17-18-19 think they are in charge, they are not. They cannot, for the most part, take out enough student loans on their own for some college choices/experiences.

When I was in college, some of the students commuted from parents’ homes as the college was in the same city - it didn’t make sense to live on campus. They had a car to come and go. Sometimes the grass is greener.

The paradigm has changed most dramatically for affordability of private schools; also families have had to deal with financial situations that have happened - illnesses, lay-offs, etc. My cancer was 50/50 for long time survive-ability - diagnosed when kids were in 8th and 10th grades.

After 2nd child was born, DH said he couldn’t ‘handle’ having another child - he was ‘too old’ (and we were older parents.) I accepted that, and now in hindsight, it was right for us as we never could have afforded some of the experiences both our students have had. Also the strain during ‘the cancer years’.

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There tends to be an assumption on CC that most kids should be able to qualify for full tuition or half tuition somewhere and the country is full of kids that are not at that stat level. Their parents are on CC too. All I've seen people posting, myself included, is that it means choices are limited. Choices are limited for almost everyone in some ways, whether its admission limitations/reaches or financial. it is what it is

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I get that.

Students with “good but not merit-worthy” stats have the fewest choices unless their parents can full-pay. Millions of students fall into this group. That’s probably why most of America’s college students commute to a local state school or CC.

That said…a few of us remember MomfromTexas. She found full rides for her kids and one had very modest stats. There are fewer full rides today, but there may be full-tuition awards to be had for students whose stats aren’t particularly high.

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One benefit California families on this thread have is that they DO have a solid community college system in the state. That can’t be said for many states.

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What always impressed me about the FAFSA EFC formula are how they punish thrift and entrepreneurship. If a parent is in college - not an uncommon situation these days - they get no credit. A family that buys an expensive house (by necessity or choice) and has few liquid assets pays far less than the family in an inexpensive house with significant liquid assets even though they have the same net worth. Business owners are punished severely over employees even though they have much higher cash requirements. What business owner could withdraw 12% of the value of their business - above and beyond their current cash draws when many businesses, have minimal cash generation capability in their early years?

@ClassicRockerDad , if you live in a high tax state like California you have 25% Federal tax + 9% Cali tax + 7% SS/medicare (assuming 2 worker with equal income) + property tax (10K=3%) + sales tax (2%) + gas tax + excise taxes and you are up well over 50%

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“Business owners are punished severely over employees”
I could argue that business owners can benefit from ways to hide their income and take write-offs that employees with W2 income cannot, both in terms of college finances and tax time.

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People tend to overestimate the income tax that they pay, because they tend use their top marginal tax rates, even though some of their income is taxed at lower rates.

http://www.tax-rates.org/income-tax-calculator/?ref=nav_income can help you estimate federal and state income tax, and payroll tax.

For example, a married couple with 4 kids and an income of $350,000 per year (all W-2 income) and standard deduction (of course, itemizing the property tax and state income tax would reduce the total tax) would have an estimated federal income tax of $78,951.00, estimated California income tax of $26,705.68, and estimated payroll tax of $13,322.00, for a total of $118,978.68, or 33.99%.