<p>Considering that you’re citing rankings, you don’t actually seem to know what the rankings say; Michigan/ Berkeley are actually ranked above Cornell on rankings such as the Times 200. Get your head out from under the ground mate, this isn’t the 20th century anymore.</p>
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<p>We’re talking about the undergrad level here…in which Michigan/Berkeley do not outrank Cornell. </p>
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<p>norcalguy said “on CC”, and what you posted there, “on most of the threads”, just validates that…people on CC only look at selectivity, whereas world rankings don’t which is why Cornell and Columbia aren’t ranked that far apart in most international rankings</p>
<p>I think of myself as objective since I have no affiliation with Cornell. To me, reputation wise, Cornell excels in engineering, applied sciences (including agriculture). Why any one who go to Cornell for a liberal arts degree boggles the mind. Too many other Ivies as well as LACs dominate that field…</p>
<p>Cornell is pretty strong across the board in all academic areas, not just engineering and the applied sciences. Berkeley and Michigan don’t compare to Cornell, Duke, etc. at the undergraduate level. They have inferior students and lack resources for undergraduates, not to mention the job placement is not on par unless you are enrolled in the business schools at those places.</p>
<p>Wall Street Journal Feeder Ranking
[Wall</a> Street Journal College Rankings: The Full List and Rating Criteria](<a href=“http://anayambaker.hubpages.com/hub/Wall-Street-Journal-College-Rankings-The-Full-List-and-Rating-Criteria]Wall”>http://anayambaker.hubpages.com/hub/Wall-Street-Journal-College-Rankings-The-Full-List-and-Rating-Criteria)
Duke: #6
Cornell: #25
Michigan: #30
Berkeley: #41</p>
<p>^ In terms of skewed methodology that WS Feeder ranking is just as suspect as the Academic Ranking of World Universities. The most recent ARWU has Cornell well above Duke.</p>
<p>ARWU for universities in the United States:
Cornell = #11
Duke = #27</p>
<p>In the real world Duke and Cornell are peer schools, and prospective students should choose on criteria such as individual program, preferred locale, campus visits, cost of attendance, et cetera.</p>
<p>Saugus, I can’t believe how many times I have to pull this up for you. You are the manifestation of insecurity itself. Don’t bring your inferiority complex to college. I am not even exaggerating - you alone (and pretty much just you) must have had posts on the same topic at least 25 times on this board. At. the. very. least. This isn’t healthy for yourself, and it is an eyesore for other people as well. When someone answers your questions in one thread, you don’t go to another thread and make the same question again.</p>
<p>[Ivy</a> League Universities / Schools Ranking - U.S. College Rankings](<a href=“http://www.uscollegeranking.org/ivy-league/ivy-league-universities-schools-ranking.html]Ivy”>http://www.uscollegeranking.org/ivy-league/ivy-league-universities-schools-ranking.html)
Usually, in terms of rankings this is how it goes - HYP, then columbia <-> larger ivies (penn, cornell), then LAC sized ivies. If you really want to confirm this general trend, go to arwu, qs, times higher education (all 3 are world rankings), studentreviews and other such rankings on your own. Are we done?</p>
<p>As said before, it is only on CC where selectivity is king because prefrosh think that school selectivity is everything. Employers realize that going through college and accomplishing things is another selection process in itself (and that educational quality does not directly correlate with selectivity by itself, as shown by comparing schools like JHU and georgetown).</p>
<p>Do JHU and Georgetown provide inferior undergraduate educations in your estimation Colene?</p>
<p>
Why is the WSJ Feeder Ranking suspect? Just because Cornell doesn’t do well on it? Rankings like ARWU, Shanghai Jia Tong, and Times Higher Education have nothing to do with undergratuate prestige and reputation and this is a forum that is devoted to undergraduates. Cornell and Duke are academic peers but Duke is more prestigious since its more selective, has a smarter student body, has better professional school placement, has more financial resources for students, and is a stronger feeder to elite jobs like investment banking/management consulting.</p>
<p>^ You better find credible sources for all those points, Mr. Duke Grad.
And no, i’m saying JHU is better regarded despite its significantly lower selectivity.</p>
<p>WS feeder ranking is suspect as I have said before, they simply divide the number of people going into the field / total number of undergraduate students. Cornell has many students concentrated in many different specialized fields (more so than many other schools given the 7 specialized colleges), and this oversimplified method disadvantages Cornell. If they simply consider the A&S schools or better yet, the people who major in those related fields, then it is more believable. But they do not do that so it is not credible. Yes, I have looked into their methodology.</p>
<p>How well a school is regarded (Prestige which you care so much about) often trickles down from its Grad department - especially notorious in the case of harvard (low focus on undergrads, but selectivity and grad dept. strength is able to carry it all the way to the top, opposed to princeton which is both is both amazingly strong in both undergrad and grad). Quality of programs also trickles down from the grad department as I said earlier. As said from Times higher ed. rankings itself, their rankings are meant to help both undergrads and postgrads select degree courses, career decisions, etc.</p>
<p>Really, there is very little difference between undergrad and grad prestige because the undergraduate school gets its prestige from the graduate school. Ex: Cornell gets its recognition/prestige in east asia from the success of the Cornell grads that became historical figures there and the graduate school.</p>
<p>Also, placing people into IB is good for sure. If that’s really something you want to compare, then compare within econ, ILR, and AEM and such majors within Cornell to those of Duke (that would be a more accurate representation of IB placement). If the quality of an institution is shown just from the average salary of the grads alone - there’s a simple fix. Just have everyone do IB - but then that comes at the cost of the diversity of the students and the quality of the education (which cornell takes to be depth and breadth rather seriously). The same argument holds for comparison for placement into different specialized fields - find a way to compare within students of the same major and sample from more than 5 arbitrary top tier grad schools, then we’ll talk. Salary doesn’t reflect on the strength and recognition of the institutions as wholes (Otherwise schools like harvey mudd, NYU poly, colgate, lehigh, holy cross, bucknell, and manhatten, etc. would do better than both Duke and Cornell)- which is what the rankings Colm and I posted show. if you care about prestige and reputation so much, then here you go. [Top</a> Universities by Reputation 2012](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/reputation-rankings.html]Top”>World Reputation Rankings 2012 | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>
<p>I’m not saying that any of these rankings are entirely correct. They are far from it individually. However, taken together, they show that Cornell, Duke, Berkeley, and such are peer schools, stronger and weaker in different areas that make them equals - an idea that you obviously cannot take due to your personal bias and your ego.</p>
<p>
Huh? It really boggles your mind? Cornell has one of the best and most respected English departments, particularly in Literary Criticism and Creative Writing. Just look at how many writers are affiliated: [Cornell</a> Writers | Entire List](<a href=“http://www.writers.cornell.edu/entirelist/]Cornell”>http://www.writers.cornell.edu/entirelist/). It’s also has a well regarded History department.</p>
<p>I, personally, would question the value of going to Cornell for fine arts or theatre. I think there are definitely far stronger programs in those fields with better locations and connections for the money.</p>
<p>Here is the reveal preference ranking - [A</a> Revealed Preference Ranking of U.S. Colleges and Universities by Christopher Avery, Mark Glickman, Caroline Hoxby, Andrew Metrick :: SSRN](<a href=“http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105]A”>http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105)</p>
<p>1 Harvard University
2 California Institute of Tech
3 Yale University
4 MIT
5 Stanford University
6 Princeton University
7 Brown University
8 Columbia University
9 Amherst College
10 Dartmouth
11 Wellesley College
12 University of Pennsylvania
13 University of Notre Dame
14 Swarthmore College
15 Cornell University
16 Georgetown University
17 Rice University
18 Williams College
19 Duke University
20 University of Virginia
21 Brigham Young University
22 Wesleyan University
23 Northwestern University
24 Pomona College
25 Georgia Institute of Technology
26 Middlebury College
27 U. of California: Berkeley
28 University of Chicago
29 Johns Hopkins University
30 USC
31 …</p>
<p>I wouldn’t use that to argue against Duke, though, because it ALSO has us ranked last in the Ivy League…</p>
<p>And Colene, the premier ranking in the US in US News, which has Cornell tied at 15th and Columbia at 4th. International rankings are subject to bias as well. Dartmouth isn’t even in the top 100 on some of the rankings you posted. Granted, US news probably places too much on selectivity.</p>
<p>@Saugus</p>
<ol>
<li>That is a pretty old chart, and their qualification for their “knowledgeable students” are simply prefrosh who performed at the average of 90th percentile in SATs - and nothing is said about their performance in school. They would know as much as completely guests in CC, and cc was not so big back then so they would not probably have that kind of knowledge either. So yes, this chart is representative of the views of not so knowledgeable prefrosh in 2005 and their rankings on the reputation of the schools that they’ve heard of. It is not representative of the views of anyone but prefrosh in 2005 (about as qualified as the average ccer to top school boards, I presume - but less knowledgeable). Frankly, nobody gave as much of a crap back then back in 2005 - it was better that way.</li>
</ol>
<p>Which is why I say no ONE chart/ranking ever explains everything there is to consider.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Big effing deal saugus. As I said before no ONE ranking is representative which is why i mentioned all of those more up to date ones - but no one listens. The thing is that you would have agreed with them too if you had gotten into HYP just because of their selectivity, not their educational quality (Your tone shows through in your posts - there is a clear pattern). You are in denial of what you actually believe in (which is not even the truth) and you really need to fix that inferiority complex. (This is going overboard - but I’m saying this so you would stop giving so much of a crap about placement of Cornell relative to other ivies in every chart you see. I’ve already showed you the other more up to date ones -> go look at them.)</p></li>
<li><p>USNews puts significant weight on selectivity and class size/ faculty:student ratio - where Cornell loses out on the intro level for sure. Other ranking that i kind of mentioned put more weight into the success of graduates, reputation, and staff quality and such. Yeah, none of them are representative alone like I said before - which is why you look at all of them to see a trend, if you must really, really rely on rankings.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>If it is possible, i would like this ridiculous thread to end here and say that all of these top schools are peer schools in everyone’s eyes in the working/real world, and if you think otherwise (whether you are concerned about your personal success at those schools after you get there and are trying inflate your sense of self worth through your school or otherwise), keep it to yourself and deal with it. Successful individuals know that these schools give them similar opportunities and justify their successes based on their own abilities. Failures have nothing to lean back on except their name of their schools, so they inflate that instead on forums - where it doesn’t do anything to convince employers or recruiters but cloud the judgement of future students. This is why posters who keep on trying to force the idea that their school is absolutely above their peer schools in every respect in their school’s forum and those who would go to another school’s forum and mindlessly attack that school reeks of failure (which I extrapolate from the amount of bias that they show). It kills me to keep pulling these rankings and such bull to argue when I don’t believe in their validity them in the first place - but if you want to argue using these tactics, I’ll use it right back at you.</p>
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<p>I would say Harvard and Princeton are much more prestigious than Yale in the sciences, while Yale might have the edge in the humanities. Cornell, too, is better than Yale for engineering, CS, and most science. Science quality is easier to assess objectively, so I think Harvard and Princeton “blow Cornell out of the water” but the rest of the schools depend on the major - (in fact, for engineering, Cornell’s is probably better than even Harvard’s).</p>
<p><em>Revealed Preference-based Rankings for Students with Tastes for Various Fields of Study</em> <a href=“http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105[/url]”>http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105</a> —> see Table 7 (inside the download the paper)</p>
<p>Ranking among students who plan to major in engineering, math, computer science, or the physical sciences -
1 Harvard
2 California Inst. of Tech.
3 Yale
4 MIT
5 Stanford
6 Princeton
7 Wellesley College
8 Williams College
9 Dartmouth College
10 Notre Dame
11 Amherst College
12 Brown
13 Columbia
14 Swarthmore College
15 Cornell
16 University of Pennsylvania
17 Duke
18 Rice
19 Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science
20 Colgate
21 University of Chicago
22 Harvey Mudd
23 Georgia Inst. of Technology
24 Northwestern
25 University of Virginia</p>
<p>Ranking among students who plan to major in the humanities -
1 Yale
2 Stanford
3 Harvard
4 Princeton
5 Brown
6 Columbia
7 Notre Dame
8 Amherst College
9 University of Pennsylvania
10 Dartmouth College
11 Swarthmore College
12 Georgetown
13 Wellesley College
14 Pomona College
15 Duke
16 St. John’s College
17 Kalamazoo College
18 Middlebury College
19 University of the South
20 Claremont McKenna
21 Rice
22 Cornell
23 Carleton College
24 Wesleyan
25 Northwestern</p>
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<p>Besides the thing I brought up with Caltech, I find Yale, Notre Dame, Amherst, Wellesley, Williams, Dartmouth, Notre Dame, Swarthmore, and Brown surprisingly high. Yale over MIT? Williams and Swarthmore over Harvey Mudd? And isn’t Wellesley a women’s college, so it’s irrelevant for half of all prospective college students. Brown and Dartmouth over Cornell and UChicago? And where is Berkeley? It’s one of the best US public universities, if not the best, for engineering, math, computer science, and the physical sciences. Yet UVA and Georgia Tech are there and not Berkeley (or UMich).</p>
<p>Peer Assessment Ranking (US News & World Report 2012)</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard University (4.9/5.0)</li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology (4.9/5.0)</li>
<li>Princeton University (4.9/5.0)</li>
<li>Stanford University (4.9/5.0)</li>
<li>Yale University (4.8/5.0)</li>
<li>University of California-Berkeley (4.7/5.0)</li>
<li>California Institute of Technology (4.6/5.0)</li>
<li>Columbia University (4.6/5.0)</li>
<li>Cornell University (4.6/5.0)</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins University (4.6/5.0)</li>
<li>University of Chicago (4.6/5.0)</li>
<li>University of Michigan-Ann Arbor (4.5/5.0)</li>
<li>University of Pennsylvania (4.5/5.0)</li>
<li>Brown University (4.4/5.0)</li>
<li>Duke University (4.4/5.0)</li>
<li>Northwestern University (4.4/5.0)</li>
<li>Dartmouth College (4.3/5.0)</li>
<li>University of Virginia (4.3/5.0)</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon University (4.2/5.0)</li>
<li>University of California-Los Angeles (4.2/5.0)</li>
<li>University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill (4.2/5.0)</li>
</ol>
<p>Let’s stop it here…Every school has its own strengths. Every ranking has its own flaws…</p>
<p>@Bob, this is a ranking based on what prefrosh think, which is why it isn’t an assessment of the schools’ strengths. It’s brought up because the duke grad wanted to talk about reputation. Like I said, it’s flawed - just like other rankings and such. This discussion isn’t getting us anywhere - Cornell, duke, berk, rice, and such are peer schools and that’s the end of that. Let’s move on.</p>
<p>I honestly hope OP is a ■■■■■</p>
<p>^
Your screen-name is “HPYSCM.” If the OP is a ■■■■■, then you are like a real version of what he is trying to imitate. If not, you two are the same type… If the ‘C’ is referring to Columbia, then you obviously just picked based on selectivity.</p>
<p>Colene is right, basically. It’s futile to argue between Duke, Cornell, Northwestern, Hopkins, Penn CAS, Dartmouth, Brown, etc. They are more or less equal. We are a tier above Berkeley, UMich, UCLA, UNC Chapel Hill, and UVA, but below Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and Wharton. We are all in in the second highest tier of schools, and there are a TON of opportunities and connections.</p>
<p>That said, would I still trade Cornell for Princeton if I could? Duh. I’m not really sure what it would do for me. I would probably get a marginally better education (maybe 5-10% if you could quantify it) and a sense of self-satisfaction. Probably a stronger network and easier access to a job. May have helped me a bit down the road, but I don’t think a Cornell education is going to inhibit me in any way. I know a guy this year who picked Cornell over HYP, but he was a recruited athlete majoring in AEM.</p>
<p>Honestly, it doesn’t bother me that I didn’t get into Duke, Northwestern, Brown, etc. It’s HYPSW which I regret missing out on. I just can’t help but thinking that if I’d just done a little more… 2400 instead of 2340, stronger essays read by expensive professionals… maybe I would have had a better outcome. It’s seriously just “what-if” to the extreme.</p>