<p>My kid's school penalizes students with A's in Non-Weighted Classes. As a sophomore this year, she has earned straight As for 7 courses. Because marching band is not an Honors class, her rank has dropped from 1 to 7. She wants to continue marching band, but we're not sure if we should accept credit for this class. If we decline credit, marching band will not show on the transcript because showing pass/fail is not an option. Should we just keep the credit and forget about the class rank (for colleges to see her passion for music) or take off the credit to maintain a high rank? Her dream college is Yale. Please help. Any feedback is appreicated. Thank you very much.</p>
<p>It looks like you can have it both ways. Take off the credit for a high rank and list band as an EC.</p>
<p>At Yale you need both high rank and fabulous ECs, but in general, in college admissions, rank is much more important than ECs.</p>
<p>If your DD is going to depend on love of music as a key EC for Yale, she’ll probably need to take it beyond the school band.</p>
<p>I know two kids who went to Yale with not so fabulous ECs. Singing/music is an EC for one and newspaper editor is for the other. However, they both are top students(well known within the high school) from a super competitive public high school. The high school does not rank.</p>
<p>Generally grades on core subjects (english, math, science, history, language) are the ones that matter to the top colleges. In my D’s high school, where there are requirements to take 2 years of visual and/or performing arts the grading for these subjects are often As. The school does not weigh grades, nor does it rank. So the core subjects stand out. Many academic high schools, especially private ones, follow this approach.</p>
<p>Generally also having a few (and even one) EC that reflects great commitment, depth and passion distinguishes the very good candidates from the exceptional candidates.</p>
<p>So what to do? I would think that showing a sequence of A’s in band is a good thing, because it reflects that your D is making all the necessary commitments that band requires. In a way it verifies her success in band.</p>
<p>Unless your D’s high school rarely sends students to the Ivies, I would think that they know which courses are hard and which are not, and that they wouldn’t be influenced by the weighing of grades.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why so many ignore that many colleges report the percentage of vals and sals in every class, and even at mid tier ivies, the percent is close to half.</p>
<p>If you are really in the running for the number one or two spot - it’s probably worth it not to take band for credit as long as you are still allowed to do it as an EC. You could probably even get a note in your file about the grade you would have gotten if you hadn’t wanted to lower you GPA. Our school does the same thing, but since my son’s weighted GPA was less than 100 the 98s and 99s he gets in orchestra actually bring up his GPA, so I haven’t had to worry about it! </p>
<p>My sister-in-law still grouses that she didn’t get to be val because orchestra wasn’t weighted. Harvard accepted her anyway. (Don’t know if they accepted the val too, next time she grouses I’ll have to ask.)</p>
<p>Unfortunately the answer is that both are important. But I think the GPA/rank is more important IF you can do band without the grade. If you can’t it’s not nearly as clearcut.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You didn’t ask about this but I’m going to share it anyway. Two of the most important things I’ve learned here at CC are Love Thy Safety and that there is no such thing as the dream school unless the student has been lead to believe that. If you’ve not already, start the search for the safety and matches of her dreams. </p>
<p>My son applied to Yale SCEA this year and did not get in. I’ve never been so happy in my life that he had already been accepted at our state’s flagship school and that had applications outstanding at colleges that he is genuinely excited about attending. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The majority of vals and sals must get turned down at these schools, correct? I’m asking because I may be wrong about that but I believe that to be the case.</p>
<p>I would not say that we ignored it or even that I see other people here doing that so much as I see people dealing realistically with their child. Most kids have a passion outside of the AP or Honors listings. The student in this thread has a very good option, in my opinion, but often times parents or students are asking about dropping an EC.</p>
<p>If she takes band as an EC, will only six courses show up on her transcript instead of seven? That might be more of a negative than having an unweighted elective.</p>
<p>Another topic:</p>
<p>How good a musician is your daughter? Might she like to try out for all-state honors band (or an all-county or all-region honors band within your state)?</p>
<p>To be eligible for honors bands, students almost always have to be taking band for credit during the year when they try out.</p>
<p>It’s an additional issue to take into consideration.</p>
<p>One might frame the question this way: If your daughter takes band as an EC and thereby gives up her all-state eligibility, and then she doesn’t get into Yale anyway, will she always regret that she didn’t have the chance to try for all-state?</p>
<p>^^^^^</p>
<p>Really, most schools have only a 6 period day, so students can only earn 6 credits a year. I am not sure how that is a negative.</p>
<p>I think that you have the opportunity to let her do both… then do it.</p>
<p>While her dream school may be Yale now, that may change and the reality is that she could/would be happy at scores of colleges across the country. I would hate to see her drop something she loves.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that students with perfect stats get rejected from top tier colleges all the time. While 1/2 the freshman class at some Ivies may be vals or sals, plenty of vals and sals are rejected each year. Last year, the Val at our high school didn’t get in any of the Ivies she applied to. It is tough out there.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Our school system has a seven-period day. Although taking band/orchestra/chorus for credit is not allowed, being a teacher’s aide one period per day is. Students who are aides only earn 6 credits. The top students rarely serve as aides because it might look less-than-ideal on their transcripts.</p>
<p>I have never heard that most schools only have a 6 period day. Kids at our HS who opt to skip the lunch period can take up to 8.5 credits. (0.5 for PE required). Many have 7.5 credits if they don’t take study hall. There is often the dilemma of non-weighted electives, with no option to take classes like band for no credit. My S, who is not looking at top schools, has filled his non-weighted electives with a series of classes that follow his interests - art, CAD, robotics, programming, architecture. For the OP, it sounds like the no credit options is a good one, unless, as marian warned, it would keep her from district honors bands.</p>
<p>
Well, at our HS EVERY student who gets greater than a 4.0 is desginated as a sal. The val is of course just one person. However, when the sals are listed, they are listed in the rank order that they follow the val in GPA so if someone knows how this works at our HS, they could figure out who is THE sal.</p>
<p>We never set out val/sal as something to strive for and it’s a good thing. He’s taken/taking two college level math courses online for credit and these are NOT weighted. Since val is determined by weighted academic GPA, he would have been screwed. However, since I’ve read ad naseum that ad comms look first to rigor of schedule, we’re hoping he’s noticed.</p>
<p>I had to come out of my hiatus to answer this, the '10 thread regulars have heard this saga over the past 1.5 years.</p>
<p>Let your kid do what she wants!! Is there a 7th class that she would prefer to band? Would she like to take both? If she wants to take both, audit band and it is easy enough for both her and the GC to mention that she audited it in the letters to colleges.</p>
<p>My D had a similar situation, our school limits kids to only 6 classes. She wanted to take 6 academic classes and also take chorus. Initially she tried to audit chorus but they fought her and made her take a free period. The administration thought she was doing this to look good for college which was absolutely not the case. She got the policy changed so that one could audit a music/art class as a 7th class. She did that the next year and it didn’t show on her transcript, but she didn’t do it for that, she did it because she wanted to be in chorus. Since our chorus teacher plays fast and loose with regulations anyway, she was able to audition for all state. This year, she butted heads with the administration again and is auditing a history class. Again, not on the transcript, but it is an area she likes. </p>
<p>Do what makes her happiest (without going crazy) and it will all work out in the end.</p>
<p>She wrote about how they caught her in the chorus room and stood outside the door barring her attendance as her Chicago “how did you get caught” essay…</p>
<p>I’ll also say that I did the same thing when I was in HS. I took more courses that interested me to a detriment of my rank. Finished 4th and helped the val with her calc homework sometimes. We both went to good schools and lead happy lives.</p>
<p>One thing that I think has helped at our school is that we have a special arts program that gives you a special designation on your diploma. They’ve sold the kids and parents on the idea that not only is it fun, but it will also “look good on your diploma”. The end result seems to be that most of our top students are also in the arts program, so while technically the tippy top students might be better off only taking the minimal number of art courses NYS requires, in practice many do more. Also, with less grade inflation than average (and using a 100 point scale) and less weighting than some places the weighting makes less difference. As I said upthread, my younger son - who is just off the fifth percentile in rank is helped by his orchestra courses.</p>
<p>I had the same question a week ago. Most people here suggested that the rank does not matter that much if the kid stays on top 2%. My S is the #1 best student in his school and every student recognizes that. He has taken / will take the most rigorous courses - 2 APs 10th and 4 APs 11th. He is very likely to loose #1 rank because he continues to take marching band which is a regular 4.0 course. This is really a shame. I wanted him to drop band and to take another AP or GT (both 5.0 WGPA). The GC recommended him to stay with band and showed him that the #14 went to an IVY and the VAL got reject in previous years. BTW, his school ranks WGPA, UGPA and % to colleges.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I say forget about rank at this point. Go for the music passion.</p>
<p>If your daughter loves marching band, she should stay in it one way or the other. The only chance a kid has to be in the high school marching band is in high school; this experience will never come again.</p>
<p>But I would suggest that she avoid using the word “passion” to describe her interest in music on college applications if marching band is the limit of her participation in musical activities.</p>
<p>Among applicants to super-competitive colleges such as Yale, merely participating in school musical ensembles would not constitute an intense interest in music. For that matter, even studying with a private teacher, being an all-state musician, getting top marks at state solo festival, and playing in outside musical organizations or the local college orchestra would not constitute a Yale-level “passion” for music. The Yale applicants who can truly claim a “passion” for music have a much higher level of dedication. Qualifying for all-state is the least of their accomplishments. They’re the ones who win national concerto competitions and suchlike. </p>
<p>This does not mean that there’s anything wrong with your daughter’s participation in band; there isn’t. It just means that she should not think that it will make her stand out for musical reasons in Yale’s applicant pool.</p>
<p>As a lot of you used Yale as an example, you need everything and the most important one “luck” to get in Yale. I know an excelent kid got rejected by Yale this year. He is one of the top students from a well-known high school with 4.0 GPA, near perfect SAT I & II, a lot APs with 5 and made to Intel competition semifinal last week. He has performed piano concerts at many prestigous places like Kenndy Center. He has had everything, but still got turned down.</p>
<p>Yale does not recalculate the GPA. They take it however the school calculates it. Rank is extremely important to them and to other most selective schools. Sure, maybe at some school #1 was rejected by Yale and #14 was accepted. Not at our school: Yale has taken ONLY #1s who also have strong ECs.</p>
<p>Since your D can participate in band, whether for credit or not, she can have the best of both worlds: participate in the band AND preserve her rank. (Dragonboyson was in a different situation: he did not have the option of participating in the marching band without credit. At was all or nothing. Moreover, it was an honors ensemble.)</p>
<p>It is also true that playing in the school band is not enough to present a strong music EC. There needs to be participation in the regional youth symphony, all-state, or other outside groups and the like. And even then, frankly, musicians are a dime a dozen among top students. It might help if she plays a less common instrument such as oboe or bassoon.</p>
<p>The best music EC for Yale is being a quality male acapella/choral singer, preferably a tenor. Heaven help the hapless altos. Unless they are REALLY good. :)</p>
<p>hmom frequently quotes the figure that 40% of Penn’s class are valedictorians or salutatorians, but I would just note that that means that 60% of the class are not. </p>
<p>Your D should not give up something that she loves just to get a weighted grade. Colleges don’t just look at an applicants rank and say, well that’s it. They also look at hte profile for the high school, and consider what it means for a person to be number 7 vs. number 1 at schools with different systems of grading, different levels of competitiveness, and they look at what else the applicant is doing. They’re not stupid, they’ll get that if her rank is 7, but she’s in band, then that’s different from the kid who’s rank is 1, but seems to have no other defining features outside of his academics. </p>
<p>Furthermore, as dragonboy pointed out, being #1 is definitely no garauntee of getting into a top school. It’s not even the most important consideration for most adcoms. So why be unhappy and be number 1, when you could be number 7, happy, doing things that you love, and still have just as good of a chance of getting into a top school? </p>
<p>As long as she stays in the top 10% of her class or higher she stands an excellent chance of attending a top univeristy or college. Within that 10%, it will really matter very little if she’s number 1 or number 8, whereas being in marching band will at least make her stand out from all the other number 7s being considered.</p>