<p>^ a very reasonable post.</p>
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<p>It’s funny for those who are new to CC’s MBA board, you’d be justified in thinking that I was some unapologetic fanboy for SOM. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have never attended Yale much less its b-school.</p>
<p>Now having said that, I absolutely do feel vindicated when I made claims that Yale SOM was on the rise about 5 years ago on this very site – I said plainly that it was going to become a Top 10 b-school. People laughed at that thought. Well fast forward to the latest UNSWR MBA ranking and it’s right on schedule ranked no. 10. Forbes also has it ranked no. 10. FT ranks it the 9th best US b-school.</p>
<p>I was right, and I won’t apologize when I say that it is very satisfying to say so. It is the simple validation of the conviction of my beliefs.</p>
<p>But, you see, the thing is people are slow to accept change and commonly held beliefs. </p>
<p>In addition to all of the reasons quoted above, historically, SOM was generally targeted at those folks looking to make a career in public policy (hence its weird MPPM degree). Let’s not mince words – it was a b-school backwater. And that is a perception that isn’t easy to overcome.</p>
<p>However, in the last 10 years, a lot of changes started happening at SOM. They started getting serious. They got rid of the four letter degree that no one had ever heard of and began going with the industry standard MBA. I started noticing about 5 years ago the frequency that SOM professors were featured in the Wall Street Journal or being interviewed on CNBC. They were marketing their product backed by its juggernaut name. They started cranking out research. They woke up one day and said, we’re Yale, dammit.</p>
<p>Now while I never applied to SOM when I was applying to b-school back in the day – if I were applying today? Yeah, I’d consider it. And if I were faced with a choice between going to Haas and going to SOM? I’d go to SOM without any hesitation.</p>
<p>here is the thread back in '05 in case anyone is feeling nostalgic:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/business-school-mba/123584-yale-cornell.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/business-school-mba/123584-yale-cornell.html</a></p>
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<p>Then frankly, I’m surprised by your peer group. Berkeley Haas has had one of the most successful Master’s of Financial Engineering programs in the country - some would even argue the most successful (although I’m not sure I would go quite that far, so I would revert back to its status as ‘one of the most successful’) - to the point that MIT Sloan has been copying much of its structure for its new M.Fin program. Other than Princeton, Chicago, and a few others, no other schools offer a program comparable to the Haas MFE, and certainly not Yale SOM. If I was sure that I wanted to pursue a career in finance, and I had the necessary quantitative chops, there is little doubt that I would choose the Haas MFE program over the Yale SOM MBA (or nearly any MBA program for that matter. Why spend 2 years in school when you can spend only 1? Why be forced to learn topics such as marketing or operations management when, as a finance guy, you’re probably never going to use?). </p>
<p>Haas also has a far better established reputation for finance within the academic financial community. While I’m certainly not claiming that Haas has the finance academic powerhouse reputation of Wharton or Chicago, its academic sway seems to significantly exceeds Yale’s. I see more papers in such publications as the J. of Finance or J. of Financial Economics coming out of Haas than from Yale. I detect relatively little enthusiasm amongst the star finance PhD students to place at, or from star junior faculty looking to make a lateral move, to Yale (again, relative to Haas). The nature of academic collaboration drives strong network effects: once a department develops a reputation for eminence, other top scholars are incentivized to join. And, of course, Oliver Williamson of Haas recently scored the major coup of having won the Nobel Memorial Prize for his pioneering work on transaction cost economics. Yale SOM has never won a Nobel, nor as far as I can tell, frankly, are any of its current faculty considered to be serious contenders. {In contrast, Williamson’s name had been bandied about for years before finally being honored.} </p>
<p>The upshot is that Haas seems to have developed a quite respectable position within the world of finance, both from a practitioner and academic standpoint, and if certain financiers have never heard of Haas, then I suspect that speaks to their idiosyncrasies. </p>
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<p>While I too have been impressed by the recent rise of SOM, allow me to play devil’s advocate for a moment. Much of the improvements of SOM can be directly attributed to the energetic leadership of Joel Podolny, who oversaw the complete revamping of the MBA curriculum and the bolstering of the reputation of Yale within the business academic community. But Podolny is no longer dean, having abruptly resigned last year to assume the leadership of ‘Apple University’ (whatever that is). It remains to be seen whether new Dean Sharon Oster can provide the same strong leadership that Podolny provided. </p>
<p>Furthermore, as I alluded to above, I still struggle to think of a single professional (as opposed to personal) reason why a business PhD applicant, a newly minted business PhD on the academic job market, or a business faculty member looking to transfer, would choose Yale SOM over Haas, not only in finance, but in any business discipline. Academic reputations change at a snail’s pace, and academia’s incestuous nature incentivizes people to cluster around each other, if, for no other reason, to maximize their opportunities for co-authorship collaboration. It’s unclear whether Sharon Oster can improve that situation, for, not to be overly harsh, but she hasn’t been a serious scholar in over a decade, not having published in an A-level journal since the 1990’s, in contrast to Podolny who remained impressively prolific even during his tenure as Dean. As long as Yale lags behind Haas in terms of pure academic credibility, it’s hard to see how Yale will be able to surpass Haas in terms of practitioner credibility.</p>
<p>Note, whether academic and practitioner credibility should be linked, and the side-issue of whether management research/academia even generates positive social value at all (as opposed to merely being a rent-seeking activity) are all interesting questions in their own right which I could discuss at length. But those are not the topics of discussion in this thread. The truth is, rightly or wrongly, business school academic and practitioner reputations are linked, and so it’s hard to see how Yale SOM could improve, or even maintain its current standing, without a substantial upgrade to its research apparatus.</p>
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<p>Funny you said that. Berkeley has arguably the best graduate Financial Engineering program in the world.</p>
<p>And, funny that you didn’t know that science (physical) and engineering aren’t one and the same. </p>
<p>lol</p>
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<p>That’s probably because your knowledge about Haas is outdated. Haas wasn’t as strong before as it is now. Haas couldn’t hack the top 10 during your time. It was even ranked always in the top 12. But things have changed now, and so should be your knowledge about the current business schools.</p>
<p>Is there a single non-professional academic department that is stronger at Yale than UCB?</p>
<p>One could make the case that Yale’s history and political science departments are better than Berkeley’s.</p>
<p>^ Aren’t they neck-and-neck on those two academic majors?</p>
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<p>While academic accolades are nice, the real proof is in the pudding. In my peer group, which is Wall Street (initially) and then ultimately the buy side, Haas is literally no where to be found. I’ve never met a single Haas grad! And my experience isn’t that unique as I’ve also asked around amongst my peers – in my experience, Haas is way under represented if its supposed to be a top tier elite b-school. </p>
<p>Now again, I haven’t spent a significant time in Silicon Valley – but even then, the guys in VC I’ve met predominately hail from GSB or HBS.</p>
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<p>I said that one could make the case, I never said the case would be definitive. </p>
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<p>I agree with you - the proof is in the pudding, and the impressive placement record of the Haas MFE program demonstrates it to be so, which is why I said, I’m surprised you’re not finding them. </p>
<p>[Employment</a> & Internship Report (2008-2009) - Master of Financial Engineering Program - Haas School of Business, UC Berkeley](<a href=“http://mfe.haas.berkeley.edu/employment_reports.html]Employment”>http://mfe.haas.berkeley.edu/employment_reports.html)</p>
<p>Now, to be fair, these are MFE grads. Yet speaking to your point regarding the ability of Yale SOM to leverage the general Yale brand name (a point to which I would agree), Haas and Berkeley in general ought to be able to leverage the strength of the MFE program. I rather doubt that anybody in the finance industry makes an important distinction between the Haas MBA’s and the Haas MFE’s, nor with the Haas PhD’s who choose to enter industry (although, granted, few do so, as most prefer to stay in academia). </p>
<p>Yale lacks a finance master’s program, nor could they quickly develop a strong one considering its relative weaker position within the academic finance community and the general quantitative departments that such a program would inevitably call upon. </p>
<p>As I’ve always said, if you know you want to enter the finance industry, and you have the appropriate mathematical background, then you shouldn’t bother with an MBA at all as a top finance master’s program is a far more direct pathway.</p>
<p>what can i tell you brother? haven’t met a one – MBA or MFE.</p>
<p>^ Well, just because you haven’t met one makes Haas a less stellar school. At my previous company in Manila, we have plenty of HBS, Chicago and Kellogg grads. Only 2 came from Haas and only 1 from Stanford. No one has represented INSEAD thus far, considering that the school has a campus in Singapore. But would that make INSEAD a less prestigious business school?</p>
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<p>I never said it did. Please read my posts. Re-read if necessary.</p>
<p>^ Well, you didn’t say that verbatim, but that’s what you have implied.</p>
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<p>If that’s what you took away from my own anecdotal evidence, then am I to blame for your own conclusion? I’m not making any conclusions for you. I’m not that good.</p>
<p>It’s an observation. Nothing more or less. Take from that what you will.</p>
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But aren’t you insisting that we all should hear and believe you?</p>
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<p>This is a larger issue. </p>
<p>Truth be told, unless you are here seeking input / advice, every one has their own angle, bias, agenda, view, preferences, etc. Everyone wants to be heard and believed. I don’t think that’s unique to me. Over time, you people develop a style, credibility (or lack thereof), personality, etc.</p>
<p>I’m certainly not shy when it comes to expressing my opinion – as you are not as well. The combination of a variety of views is not only helpful but necessary in order to achieve “truth” whatever that may be, if a perfect truth is even achievable. At a minimum its my hope that we, collectively, help push the discussion closer towards that end rather than away from it – and let the observer make an informed conclusion. In the world of CC discussions, as in life, there is a lot of gray area and the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.</p>
<p>So, now let’s go back to the original issue: Is Yale SOM superior to Berkeley-Haas? </p>
<p>The clear and honest answer to that is — NO. </p>
<p>Berkeley-Haas is superior to Yale-SOM and whether or not the situation will reverse in the future remains to be seen. Whilst you see the reverse happening, I, and a lot of people, don’t, because whilst Yale is improving, so is Haas at a considerably fast pace.</p>
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<p>For my money, it is. And that’s all that matters as far as I’m concerned.</p>
<p>I feel like I’m as qualified as any to weigh in on this particular topic, and I’m convinced – all else being equal – that you’d be better off as a Yale SOM grad rather than a Haas grad 5, 10 years from now.</p>
<p>And that’s my honest answer.</p>
<p>Look, there were plenty of naysayers 5 years ago when I made the case that Yale SOM would become a Top 10 MBA program within 5 years. Now overtaking any of the M7 from this point on will not be an easy task, and I think this will likely take more time, but I think it’s conceivable within the next decade.</p>
<p>But as far as Haas is concerned? If I were a betting man, and I am, I say that Yale SOM ranks higher than Haas 5 years from now.</p>
<p>So why don’t we make a friendly wager – if you are so convinced that:</p>
<p>A) Haas is indeed vastly superior to SOM
B) Haas is improving at a considerable pace to offset any improvement by SOM</p>
<p>If you really do believe the above (which you have plainly written time and time again so no denying it since it’s on record literally everywhere on this board). Then there is no way you can lose, right?</p>
<p>The bet is simple: I say that Yale SOM ranks higher than Haas by 2015. We have to take a reasonable benchmark and I say that the USNWR MBA ranking is the most widely used benchmark. If at any time from now until and including 2015’s ranking SOM ranks ahead of Haas, I win.</p>
<p>If Haas continually ranks above SOM from now to 2015’s ranking, I lose. Simple.</p>
<p>Do you agree? Put your money where your mouth is. A simple concession that either party was wrong is all that we are “playing” for in this gentlemen’s bet.</p>