@MiamiDAP straight hard work is not always enough for all students to achieve A’s. And if so, then all would be avoe average excellent? Would that it were that simple but it’s vastly insulting to students who work terribly hard and their 200% effort garners them a B or a B+ at best. It may not be at all pertinent to this thread which is asking about the above average excellent student but the reality is. To be clear, I don’t disagree with your family’s path, just how it was stated which was insensitive at best.
as if to imply that those who do not get all A’s…do not work hard, do not turn homework in on time, nor was it instilled by their parents. You have no way of knowing that and insulted, intentionally or not, a vast majority of children and parents.
"straight hard work is not always enough for all students to achieve A’s. And if so, then all would be avoe average excellent? " - This is exactly what I am saying, they just do not do it. Why none of all smart kids had GPA 4.0uw in D’s HS class? Why she happened to be the only one? I am sure, there were plenty of kids who were much smarter. It should have not been this way at all, if others would simply do every assignment well and turn it in on time. Why not try it? When somebody is sitting there for many hours, it does not mean that they are working terribly hard at all. Hard work and long hours work are not the same thing, not at all. Hard work may mean that your paper is already “written” in your head before you even sit down to type it. Hard work means that you went over material many times in your head before very difficult exam while doing something else because, you simply would not feel good about it otherwise. Then, people may say, “Oh, you do not need to work so hard!”. Yes, sure, call it whatever, but the people who work very hard do not call anything insulting, they just do whatever needs to be done.
If one wants to feel “insulted”, they can feel insulted by anything in a world! OK, eandesmom, you insulted me,…just kidding, nobody in a world is capable of insulting me, I just do not care to feel “insulted”, it is much more beneficial to to learn from others than feeling “insulted”. But we are in free country, you have all rights to feel whatever you choose to feel.
We do not know if MiamiDAP’s kid would have gotten to a super-selective university because she didn’t apply to one. My older son got straight A’s but I know he didn’t always do his homework. His calculus teacher made it optional and he did only enough problems to make sure he understood the material.
You are insulting children, you have absolutely no idea what any given child is capable of and whether they are giving it their absolute best but instead are making a gross generalization based on grades. I know plenty of children who do straight hard work, to the absolute best of their ability, turn in all homework and have an amazing work ethic. And yet they do not get straight A’s. I know plenty that do. This is for a variety of reasons and the fact is that it does not come as easy to some as you seem to think. They may have ADHD. They may be terrible test takers despite having tutoring or endless practicing and studying, all kinds of LD’s or simply not quite the IQ of some. Some children are naturally better at things. A child can’t simply become a recruited athlete simply because they work hard doing whatever it takes. They will certainly become a better athlete, but doing whatever it takes…may still fall far short of being at the recruited level. There are many many reasons an excellent student might get a B. All of the things you describe many, if not most, students do. It does not mean that they will be an A student no matter how dedicated or hard they try or that they are not doing whatever it takes to the utmost of their ability and potential.
You seem to think that hard work can overcome everything and equal straight A’s and that is simply incorrect. Can it accomplish a lot, absolutely but it is not the only factor. Are their children that could get straight A’s if they worked harder? Of course there are. But there are also some, that no matter what they do, how incredibly hard they work or what resources they use, their sheer will, dedication and work ethic, will never be there and they don’t need attitudes like that throwing them under the bus.
But if it makes you feel better to think that the all other kids are just lazy, that is certainly your right. No less offensive though.
I agree @eandesmom – Tests are weighted 30% to 80% of the course grade for my son this year, depending on the class. Just doing the homework wouldn’t get you an A in most classes; the key is to be good at taking tests, which is not the case for all or even most kids, despite a lot of hard work on their part.
@MiamiDAP- I think most of the kids we are talking about here are good students. Kids like my son have high test scores and high GPAs. They do their homework. That’s the baseline. They also have to take the hardest classes and excel outside the classroom.
@runswimyoga-My son has won outstanding delegate and honorable delegate at two different Model UN conferences. His delegation also won Best Delegation at one conference.
@eandesmom-I agree 100% with your sentiments. Some people work very very very hard and just don’t get good grades. If all it took was hard work to get good enough at lacrosse to play at the Ivies my son would have had that recruited athlete spot locked up. He is good but not quite good enough to play at the Ivies. We are really hoping that one of the coaches at one of the LACs that he likes wants him on the team.
Honestly, the conversation has taken a bit of a turn here. The point of the thread was to discuss what makes an “above average” excellent student. Homework or not, a 4.0 UW GPA (or something close) is great, but not what is going to make the candidate shine above others. Same for 10, 15 or more 5s on APs. That’s good, but what else does the candidate offer? My experience tells me that those tippy-top schools are not looking for robots who can crank out As and great test scores. Other posters have pointed to the “it” factor - the marching to your own beat factor - the “intellectual curiosity” factor… And that is demonstrated by the whole package, class choices, essays (all of them), the resume, the list of accomplishments, etc. And the letters of recommendation should not be taken for granted - those need to not just be “this was one of my best students” but rather “this is the student I will remember in retirement”. And that doesn’t happen without the teacher recognizing the combination of “intellectual curiosity” and the follow through to do something with it. I’m just a parent, so maybe I am off the mark on this one, but that’s what I took away from my older son’s college search and what I will bring to my younger son’s.
@Proudpatriot My son (who was just accepted to an ivy) has said he met LOTS of kids at the admitted students day who were Model UN participants w best delegation/outstanding delegate awards. I think that is a big “excellence” component indicator (as long as you also have the grades/test scores/recommendations). Most of those students were going to continue to participate in Model UN for the ivy and son said the program is huge there… so I would have to say his skills set for Model UN would be a huge plus…
Whether its enough is hard to say, but I would encourage him to continue to the fullest he can this year and incorporate his passion for it into his essay/ application. IE how Model UN fuels his intellectual curiosity… maybe combining w his major?
@runswimyoga -That’s good to hear. I don’t know much about Model UN. My son played JV football his 9/10 grade years. This school year he decided not to play football and told me he wanted to do some type of organized arguing. I thought he would do Debate or Mock Trial but instead he told me he was doing Model UN and that was it. His school had a Mock Model UN so the kids could try it out and he was hooked.
I think that if he winds up playing lacrosse at one of the LAC that he has been in contact with he might drop Model UN in college. However, if he goes to one of the schools where he is not able to play lacrosse he will probably do Model UN in college. The thing is that at the LAC where he will be a recruited athlete he will get in.
Thats great, sounds like he will get into his dream school through recruited athletics- which as you know is a whole different set of criteria.
This might not apply to your son, but my son also wanted me to tell you most of the Model UN kids he knows have a particular passion for effecting change in the world and try to frame their papers/arguments at UN to incorporate their passion i.e. environmental protection or social advocacy, human trafficking say… Their Model UN work is an extension of their other work/passion.
If it were him, he said he would frame his essay on the college application to show his particular passion and how he uses Model UN to further his platform. for Example, In my son’s case he wants to use business models to create social advocacy change for disadvantaged groups. So he said he would write about that and how Model UN gave him the platform to understand the problems from many different world views and write/ speak always incorporating some aspect of social advocacy in his position papers… In effect how Model UN has helped him to understand shape and create his platform… as opposed to just writing on the college app essay that he participated in model UN and would like to continue in college. So the essay shows more of your intellectual passions and drive. Also he said the awards are probably only really meaningful if they are from a strong regional or national conference.
Anyway, that’s his Model UN take on the extra excellence part of above average excellence student that top schools are looking for.
^ that’s an example of how an applicant might show his thinking. Is/was he also involved in local advocacy? Or more community svc than just occasional hours?
"a 4.0 UW GPA (or something close) is great, but not what is going to make the candidate shine above others. "- not everybody aims at shining above others. Some may aim at being accepted to the selective programs that are considered by many applicants more selective than Ivy’s. Some of these programs may have only 5 - 10 spots for the incoming freshman and they are sought out by thousands. So, while 4.0uw GPA may not be enough to be a shining star above others, it is plenty enough to be accepted to such programs if applicant has a decent SAT / ACT score, took the most rigorous classes at her HS, participated in certain ECs to show their interest in this specific college programs (like medical research internship or job, volunteering,…etc.) and is overall well rounded and social person (determined at interview). All these will not make an applicant a “shining star” as everybody who is applying to these programs have about the same set. “Stand out” factor is not needed here, maybe somewhere else. Overall, “stand out” factor is very overrated and in many cases totally irrelevant.
I don’t disagree, if that is your goal and how you choose to view the world.
But the theme of the thread was “above average” excellent students and I think the goal for some is to think about what it takes to get into some of those schools that are very, very selective and where the student needs to stand out - schools which some view as the perfect fit for them (something I think you wrote about), but which require something more than grades and test scores to get into.
Sounds like the decision your daughter made has worked well for her and that’s great. It would not have been the right decision for my older son, but his approach worked for him. So, it’s all good.
DAP, you have the example of your kid, who chose the path she did. Fine. But we aren’t taking about her choices or her college. We aren’t talking about schools where “GPA…is plenty enough to be accepted.” Don’t you see that?
What can make a kid stand out is the quality of his or her thinking, which, in the first place, leads to certain challenges and experiences they took on, both related to and not related to the major, different roles he or she played, etc. Also, some awareness and perspective beyond the hs four walls, its demands. And then what comes through in the writing, all of it.
Many colleges either ask a Why Us or look to other questions in the app to see if the kid knows the school and did some considering. Just wanting to be with top peers, sorry, is not it. Just wanting to be a doc or an engineer or whatever, is not it.
'@runswimyoga-The awards he won were from the Yale and U of Miami conferences. The Model UN team from his school is pretty strong. I’m not sure what his passion is outside of sports. He’s interested in economic development.
@lookingforward-he has about 400 hours of community service. Most have been with the local youth lacrosse league.
@MiamiDAP- We don’t encourage our kids to worry about shining above all others but in the selective college entrance game it’s something that needs to be done. We never encouraged our kids to do things just to get into the colleges they want to attend. As I said earlier my older kids didn’t really aspire to the very top schools.
@lookingforward-I’m not sure his community service is special. He worked with the local youth lacrosse league. He went out to the field early and set up the fields, worked at the scorers table, brought drinks to the referees(it’s hot here) and he also worked with the goalies as a coach. He did around 400 hours over the course of high school.
As far as Model UN-I wouldn’t know a strong conference from a weak one. I know the delegation from his school is considered strong but I don’t know what that means.
I do think he will get in wherever the lacrosse coach likes him. His overall stats are high enough for the coaches at the top LAC to get him in the door. He will not be a recruited athlete at every school. Those are the ones where I have concerns.