There has been a thread on how low admissions chances are for your average excellent student. I think we should turn the tables on that thread and ask “What make a candidate an ‘above average’ excellent student?”
I’m not entirely sure. I am not talking about the following:
URM
Recruited Athletes
Art, music, theater majors (where talent is more important that academics)
For students who are not one of the above what puts them above the average smart kid?
Superior GPA and test scores AND actively involved in leadership roles in school and community activities.
34 pages devoted to the topic: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1797102-elite-admissions-finding-the-and-p1.html
The kind of family financial security that makes it possible for the student to apply to college Early Decision.
@TomSrOfBoston-What constitutes enoug leadership? What does it look like in a real kid?
@mathmom-I’m so sorry I didn’t go all the way back to a thread that was started last July. I didn’t mean to be redundant but I looked at a few pages and didn’t see anything so I started a new thread.
@Marian-I don’t think ED really gives that much of an edge to an unhooked candidate.
This is an interesting question @Proudpatriot and one I’ve pondered as well. My oldest is charismatic and people tend to gravitate to her. She’s also a force of nature and leadership comes easy. She was involved in a ton of activities, had leadership roles in h.s. and continues the same pattern in college. But an admissions officer would only see the few times she was an officer or president of a club. They have no clue if she’s truly a leader. And I would think most kids would have one leadership role somewhere.
I think there is an intangible “it” factor in academics (as in modeling). It isn’t just a “gifted” kid but a kid who is able to channel unusually strong aptitude in functional ways that result in achievements, discoveries, etc. And while parents can assist in some ways, it is driven by the child and is apparent in the child’s behavior, and discussion, even when parents are not around.
This isn’t the kid whose parents prepped them well enough to ensure that they were put in every “gifted and talented program” available and enrolled in just the right program. Rather, it is the kids whose essays in 3rd grade, completed at school, knock the teacher out of the chair-just like the same kid’s writing did last year and will next year. And while maybe supported by parents, it isn’t driven by them. The distinction is usually something recognized by peers too-usually in a positive way.
I’m not talking about savants here either or the kid who is so far off the charts that they are placed in college at young ages. Rather, I’m talking about the kids who later on get multiple offers to the top schools without having hooks and without being enrolled in every tutoring possibility there is. And these kids are self driven from an early age. Way before other parents are carefully crafting their children’s resumes (and activities) for college, the parents of these other kids are saying “no” about some activities or asking them how they are going to make room for all that they plan to do–because it is the kids’ interests and not strategizing for college that drives the involvement. And it can be overwhelming for parents who try to reign them in. Also, these kids are often years ahead in certain areas-and classroom acceleration starts very early–fueled by the need for the kids to learn new material in school-not fueled by parents goals to see their kid at the top.
Lastly, their ideas, thoughts, activities stand out from peers-and often they are not reluctant to stand out at developmental ages when other kids are glomming on to what 'everyone does…" Funny that these same kids who glommed on to what “everyone does” for their entire childhood then work really hard to “stand out” during applications.
Does this really happen @lostaccount ? Kids have to pass tests in Oregon to be “gifted.”
There’s a quality of thinking and the follow through to go with it.
That’s what shows- or doesn’t- in the application package.
We had a Wisconsin neighbor when son was in elementary school who had moved from Oregon. It floored me to think one test defined being allowed gifted education. Much more holistic in WI.
Having the 4.0 gpa does not always identify the above average candidate. Those grades may the result of an average schedule or working too many hours at it. The best students can handle the toughest schedule plus be involved in arts, music and academic EC’s. I like the 3rd grader who does well as described in one post. My son did not care to get the A’s he was capable of, not the “excellent” student despite knowing the material and able to do the work in all academic fields, sigh. He lacked the drive to be perfect I guess. Some of the “excellent” students took fewer classes at a time, spent more time to master the material, did the busywork (as defined for son’s abilities)- in other words jumped through the hoops but are average compared to the tippy top students’ abilities.
Drive to succeed likely separates those who have equal potential but don’t always perform. I see the intelligence but not the need to be at the top in H and son. I worked harder and overperformed for my expected potential. They worked less to get to the same place.
Neither of my kids were president of anything. But their accomplishments were in their resumes, their letters of recommendations and their essays. My older son was a computer guy - he didn’t do anything with it at school. But he had plenty of accomplishments both with volunteering, paid and unpaid work and even some of his game modding got accolades. (He was “lead programmer” of a successful modding team.) He clearly showed that he played well with others even though he was a bit of a loner. He was a very driven kid (about things that interested him) from the day he came out of the womb.
Younger son didn’t quite have the grades to aim as high as the older brother did, but he did much better than we expected admissions-wise, because he was able to talk about his activities in an engaging way and was able to show that he had a real intellect behind his happy-go-lucky persona. Not quite as driven, though in retrospect, I think more driven in his areas of interest than we gave him credit for.
Lots of food for thought @lostaccount. I started this thread because my youngest is interested in top schools. My older sons weren’t really obsessed with top schools. My oldest graduated from Case Western. He applied to a few top schools but didn’t think he would get in. My middle is currently at Belmont studying music. He only applied to 3 schools. He knew where he wanted to go. His audition was more important than anything else and his academics were just ok. But my youngest is different. He is very interested in some very selective LAC and a few Ivy Leagues.
I wonder what the it factor is. I think he might have it but I’m not sure what it looks like in a real person. He is the type of kid that recognized as a leader in any activity that he does. I’m just not sure what that looks like on a college application. Academics are up there but I don’t think that’s enough.
@lookingforward - how do you show those things on an application?
Leadership and the “it” factor: Obviously leadership roles in and out of schools where a student does something such as changes a school policy or raises a significant amount of money are part of the “it” factor. In addition to this, (brag alert going on now- sorry-I am trying to answer @Proudpatriot) my daughter also had a substitute teacher for AP calc when her teacher went on maternity leave. The substitute was fresh out of school and had not taught before, and despite the teacher leaving a binder of exactly what was to be taught with explicit directions on how to do it, the new teacher had some trouble. Many of the students complained and had a parent call the school. My daughter complained to me, and then figured out on her own how to do the work by watching various videos online every night. She essentially taught herself all of the lessons while her teacher was on maternity leave. Then she “inboxed” (is that the right word?) the entire class and arranged twice weekly extra help sessions at 6:30 am before school to teach the class the material. This went on for six weeks until the teacher came back to school.
This type of “it” factor gets displayed through the essays and letters of recommendation, in addition to the activities and leadership roles listed on the common app. The “it” factor, very often, is who they are, much like what @lostaccount suggested.
@Proudpatriot, I will throw in with the “letters of recommendation” crowd for demonstrating the “it” factor.
As to what exactly the “it” factor is, I think that being self-directed and taking action on (what is clearly) your own initiative, can be parts of it.
The issue with “it” factor is many only see this as action within the high school. Or mistake leadership for leader titles. Or declare that “passion” is really all that matters.
Leadership is not entirely about one’s own initiative. We know that from our grown up lives.
OP, there are many places in the CA and supps to show how one thinks, his perspective. It can show in how one chooses to answer a prompt or what he describes. It also shows in how one edits.
And definitely in how one has (or seems to have) matched himself with that college.
The “it” factor can be revealed in response to questions/prompts: What is your greatest accomplishment?" Does the student discuss an award that was won? Does the student discuss a change within themselves that was clearly demonstrated over the four years of HS? There is a lot to be gathered through these responses. Interesting thread…
@wis75: TAG kids are considered special needs students under Oregon statute. The districts are mandated to “mine” the population for the top 3% and accommodate their needs. In reality they don’t do either. Ways to qualify include: IQ of at least 129, class work is consistently at the 97% percentile, a high score on the Cogat or Wisc. A team from the school looks over the qualifying benchmark and then makes the call.
Some interesting thoughts on how leadership is viewed and or conveyed on an app. Our oldest interviewed with an AO for the LAC she eventually chose , but often that isn’t an option.
Think you are referring to my thread about the average excellent student, and I of course have read the entire thread. When I started the thread, I didn’t have a definiton in mind and I didn’t post one. My own kid was my idea of an average excellent student. She has great test scores, (2240, SAT), a good but not amazing GPA of A to A-, a very rigorous course load with 7 APs and lots of honors classes, and several ECs that aren’t special, (one is a musical instrument), and volunteer work, internships, etc… She was my baseline for the average excellent student, of which there are many such kids in this country.
Then people started posting about their “average” excellent kids who got into under 20% acceptance rate schools. But their idea of average was nothing like my admittedly unstated idea. There were kids who had won “minor” awards, and “only” played two or three varsity sports, which they might have been captain of, and only a “few” leadership positions, and maybe several other interesting ECs that were far more involved and intense than Mock Trial or Human Rights Club. AND they have the grades and test scores to boot. I do not think any of the kids with this type of out of school involvement are average. I am not sure where “average” excellent ends and regular “excellent” excellent begins, but there is surely another level above that, which is “exceptional.”
@Agentninetynine that is interesting about OR TAG. We don’t have a similar state program to my knowledge but our district policy is identical. Unfortunately that only works for those kids in elementary and simply puts them on a higher track in certain classes than the 97% have access to. They lose their special needs status in 7th grade. They’ve been protected and nurtured for 5 years of elementary and often end up failing in MS and HS because they can’t truly manage socially, organizationally or are unable to balance topics they are passionate about with recognizing that it is really important to get good grades even if you don’t like a particular subject.
They still test off the charts. Messy scattergram kids some of them. I’ve got one. Remains to be seen if he can deliver on the promise. Still, the program was a gift to all of us. In elementary in particular, some of those kids do not fare well socially and this gave them a group of peers with some mainstream (PE and Music).
@wis75 at least in our district it is not one test. It is a series and it can be appealed, taken any year up until 5th grade and you are able to provide documentation (usually an IQ test) if you choose, to aid in your appeal.
My S19 made the cut off for 5 out of 6 (or 7) areas at the time he was tested and arguably the. We appealed but didn’t bother doing anything additional beyond writing a letter.