<p>And, as an afterthought... here's a quote directly from the Pope's new book, in reference to gay marriage:</p>
<p>"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man"</p>
<p>Sounds like a very accepting religion. I'm not sure if this quote was before or after he tried to compare abortion to the holocaust. <em>shrug</em></p>
<p>Well I have to agree with the abortion/holocaust reference, but lets not get into that in this discussion.</p>
<p>Similarly I dont' want to turn this into a debate about Catholic doctrine, but I am very well versed in it, and your Catholic School was wrong. Or perhaps you misunderstood the wording (which can be a little complex and misleading). And you've gotta be kidding about the less literal interpretation thing... there are ridiculously few protestant denominations that take anything less than a purely strict literal interpretation of the bible. (and the crazy thing is that they base it on an english translation)
I think you should re-evaluate your views of Catholocism - all the ones you noted in your post are incorrect...</p>
<p>btw, boomer, I like your wording :)</p>
<p>Let me just shift this topic for a second. BTW I am a Hindu, yet I also believe in the divinity of Christ as a saint and a guide.</p>
<p>My take on religion: Basically, all the major, established religions share many of the same tenants. True, they vary in culture, texts, and traditions, but essentially they all promote the same message of love and faith in God. I think that there are many paths to leading a life of God and virtue. If you connect more to Islam then go for it. If you're more of a Buddhist, then all the power to you. That's just the way I see things.</p>
<p>However, there is a major rift in modern day religious philosophy. The accepted Western belief is that there is a heaven and a hell, and one gets only one chance at life. Did you know that this was not officially accepted until several centuries after Christ died? Early Christianity was fragmented, and some taught the heaven/hell view while others taught reincarnation. At the 2nd Council of Constantinople they decided to unify the religion by going one way or the other. They chose the heaven/hell view because they thought that reincarnation would promote laziness among mankind- basically, that people would procrastinate in being good people if they have multiple lives to mess around with. To be fair, the idea that reincarnation ever came up has been disputed by religious historians, but of course many would deny it, as it undermines a major Christian belief.</p>
<p>However, reincarnation has stayed alive in the east. Karma really makes a lot of sense to me- it doesnt depend on blind faith, and helps explain why bad things happen to innocent people. It helps people deal with the loss of loved ones, knowing that they will be coming back to Earth. It is believed by many that seemingly senseless disasters (like the tsunami and 9/11) burn off bad karma (which is necessary to eventually reach salvation and freedom from this cycle of rebirth).</p>
<p>And getting back onto what you guys are talking about right now, I don't like the Catholic system for one reason (the system, not the faith itself)- it often forces people to compromise their inner beliefs. Shouldn't it be possible to be a Catholic and support gay rights at the same time? Religion is such a personal issue, and I don't think that anyone, even if he is the Pope, should tell you what to believe. We are all just mortals- who are we to judge others for their "sins"?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Shouldn't it be possible to be a Catholic and support gay rights at the same time?
[/quote]
It should be, but it isn't.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>This is one passage out of the bible where Peter is writing to Christians who are slaves (not the same type of slavery that we have seen in the more recent past as it were) and telling them to be reverant. This was much more of a cultural thing as we currently do not have such an institution, and even the slavery in the US was different from biblical era slavery. Peter was writing to Christian slaves to be faithful under the circumstances and have respect for their "masters". So then one could argue well what is cultural and what isn't? Paul also said that women should all have long covered hair. Why don't Christians follow this today? Isn't this just postmodernism, with all of its relative truths? What we really need to do is look at what's behind the text. For instance Paul was saying that women should show respect and modesty in their culture as was the custom for the church. Women today should also be modest which is what Paul is arguing for in the text. So then how do we know what's relative and what isn't? We have to consider if something is repeated throughout the bible, or if something means something completely different in a different culture (i.e. a kiss), also is it mentioned by different authors, and particularly different times and testaments. We have to take factors into account when interpreting God's word for our lives.</p></li>
<li><p>We will be a lot happier in Heaven than on Earth (however happiness is measured which I'm not exactly sure). However, we have responsibilities to further God's kingdom here on Earth and God has plans for us right here. Paul actually struggled with knowing that he could go to heaven vs. staying on Earth. He knew he had a plan on Earth and a ministry that God had for him, and so he knew that his place for the time was on Earth.</p></li>
<li><p>Here you are arguing that Hell was invented as a tool to keep people in line. Well the bible says it isn't and that we all deserve it. I don't know how I could argue more in favor of this, because anyone could just say well humans created it. </p></li>
<li><p>It is hard to imagine to us but all sin is the same in the eyes of God. We have all done things (and will continue to) that are against God's will. God has the power to forgive mass murderers because they have come to know Christ. Now certainly isn't committing mass murders a lot worse than just making fun of God (or his prophet)? In a government system, you bet, and that mass murderer deserves to be locked up. God chose to punish the children for their actions to show his sovereignty and his strong dislike of people not showing him respect. By human standards, it's hard to justify this and why doesn't God just give the mass murderer a heart attack? I can't judge, and I honestly don't know how God judges each invidual. However, through Christ, even though we all deserve to be mauled by bears (even in our non-inocence of youth), we can be made right with God. This goes the same with a mass murderer.</p></li>
<li><p>Yep, wars are fought on religious bases and they shouldn't be. I don't think the current war on terrorism is based on religion, and I would cringe if anyone called it a "Christian" war. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>"The rhetoric that Bush constantly repeats, how democracy must be "forced" on these individuals and how they're incapable of doing it on their own is a condescending approach rooted in history of the idea that Westerners, who are predominantly christian, are superior to their backwards Islamic counterparts who have in their history represented a latecoming challenge to Christianity-Edward Said (Islam and the West)."</p>
<p>I don't think the war for democracy or the destruction of the ever elusive WMDs is based on Christian ideals. Democracy doesn't mean Christianity, and I for one, am not a big fan of Bush. Other societies in the past have actually waged war for Christianity, i.e. the crusades, this is wrong. I do not condone this.</p>
<p>On people making a profit off of Christianity, I do not know the hearts of all of the individuals so only God can judge. Once again I don't know his heart, but didn't Mel Gibson donate all his profit to charity? I could be wrong. As far as Kanye, yeah I think that was kind of an exploitation for profit, in my opinion.</p>
<p>On your closing argument, I think that God is very relevant to our lives today, even after Jesus' life 2000 years ago. Jesus dies on the cross, rises again, all of his disciples see him again after he conquerred death, and all but 1 I believe went on to die a martyr's death. If it all were a lie, wouldn't they give it up when given the option to recant their faith in Christ in order to live? Just something to think about. Although certainly Christians, and people who call them Christians, have messed up big in the past, my faith is not based on those who misuse the name of Jesus for their own gain, but in Christ himself.</p>
<p>This is an interesting dialogue! Cheers.</p>
<p>im nothing.
I think its stupid how gay marriages are looked down upon in the christian thing. The christians in my school are really.. hmmm.. uptight? They always think all other religions are stupid and that theirs is the best. Buddists and other religions kinda accept other religions ..but christians.. they r so.. up themselves. Of course, my views are based from the people from my school, not the world.</p>
<p>I believe that there is something that created us and we should respect that thing in someway but I dont belive in heavy worshipping someone/something and depending our lives upon them/it. I dont believe people should restrict their beliefs due to a book.</p>
<p>I think religions are stupid. Believe in whatever you want to believe in.</p>
<p>"Catholicism is often criticized by other protestant religions as being too restrictive and too literal. (Not to mention too focused on worshipping Mary, the Saints, and idols, etc. etc.) I've even met some people who refuse to call Catholicism a form of Christianity at all."</p>
<p>That's what makes them protestant religions, lol.</p>
<p>"(Not to mention too focused on worshipping Mary, the Saints, and idols, etc. etc.) I've even met some people who refuse to call Catholicism a form of Christianity at all."</p>
<p>Argh. I hate the misconception that Mary is worshipped! She is not worshipped, she is honored. The "Hail Mary" is taken from the bible itself and to deny the importance of the mother of god is naive. Here is the prayer itself:
Hail Mary,
full of grace,
the Lord is with you. (according to the bible these are the words of the angel gabriel at Nazareth)
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (again according to the bible (Luke) this is the greeting given to Mary by her cousin Elizabeth (mother of st john the baptist))
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death. (here we are not "worshipping" mary we are merely asking for her prayers)</p>
<p>I am not trying to defend all of Catholicism, but I do wish that people would do their research before ignorantly attacking the oldest christian religion in the world. I for one do not agree with its stance on gay marriage, abortion, original sin, and the established role of women. So I guess by the true definition of the word I am not a Catholic but I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school for 12 years and I only ask that if you are going to try to discredit the faith, do so with some actual facts.</p>
<p>"to deny the importance of the mother of god is naive"</p>
<p>so jesus was god's brother AND son? thats like ewww.
weird. im just going off what you said so dont yell at me.</p>
<p>if my logic is flawed, just let me know, dont get all mad and crap.</p>
<p>if you have the right to get mad when i dont know your religion, dont get mad when i get mad about you not understanding why i dont have a religion.</p>
<p>Yeah it's the holy trinity the father, the son, and the holy spirit are all one. It is like when catholics do the sign of the cross and say the trinity. The father is not the son's brother lol. They are of one essence.</p>
<p>"if you have the right to get mad when i dont know your religion, dont get mad when i get mad about you not understanding why i dont have a religion."
wow. I'm not mad! I hope I didn't come off that way. It just bothers me when people try to attack the faith when they don't know what they are talking about mostly because there is so much other stuff worthy of attacking in Catholic doctrine.</p>
<p>agnostic---</p>
<p>i too am agnostic. religion is a tool used to control the masses</p>
<p>unlucky charms:
[quote]
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school... and the only path they said there was to heaven was through Catholicism, and nothing else. <em>shrug</em> As far as being more liberal in interpretation... I must highly disagree there. In fact, Catholicism is often criticized by other protestant religions as being too restrictive and too literal. (Not to mention too focused on worshipping Mary, the Saints, and idols, etc. etc.) I've even met some people who refuse to call Catholicism a form of Christianity at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>it's possible you come from a more conservative Catholic family. did you know that mel gibson and michael moore are both Roman Catholics? the roman catholic church can pride itself in having such a diverse membership as Gibson and Moore.</p>
<p>Well, I am Catholic and I highly agree with catsmeow87's first post. I am a liberal Catholic.. lol, and no that is not an oxymoron. Nor is it being hypocritical. There are a lot of things that I don't agree with concerning my faith, but there are a lot of things I love about being Catholic. I believe that religion is something personal and something that YOU make out of it. I think that is why I can call myself Catholic but also believe in gay rights, freedom of choice, and the fact that not allowing birth control, etc. is ignorant to our society. </p>
<p>And I agree with awakenedream, about the catholic church being so diverse. One of the best things about catholocism is the fact that you can go ANYWHERE in the world, attend mass, and still be able to understand and follow everything. There is no language barrier because mass is practiced the same way everwhere. But I guess I can see how people say this is being too restrictive...</p>
<p>Well, that's my 2 cents regarding my faith. Oh, and catsmeow87, you couldn't have said it any better. It bugs me too when people criticize aspects of the Catholic church even though they don't know what they are talking about and especially when there are other things more worthy of criticism about the doctrine.</p>
<p>And yes, we don't worship Mary! Lol, (or any other saint for that matter). We honor them as you would your mother. For example, I honor my mom, but I don't worship her.</p>
<p>Oh, and the whole Trinity thing. Another anology would be the Trinity being like money. You've got God as a $1 bill, Jesus as a quarter, and the Holy Spirit as a dime (the whole value thing doesn't really make a difference.) A dollar bill, a quarter, and a dime are all types of money, but they are also all money. Works the same w/ God/Jesus/Holy Spirit for the most part.</p>
<p>Anyways, the best part of religion is that there are so many different types of religion. I guess its comforting to have people believe the same way you do, but its way cooler learning about other faiths and taking into consideration other people's beliefs.</p>
<p>^ well said</p>
<p>Isaac Newton on God:</p>
<p>" "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."</p>
<p>---i couldn't agree any less. the probability of the sun giving the earth adequate amounts of light---just how could this have been by chance? a confusing perception indeed....</p>
<p>note that Isaac Newton claimed atheism as 'senseless'. not that atheism is wrong or right; just 'senseless'. wise claim by a wise man.</p>
<p>but newton, i couldn't bare to ask you the question my friend: were you honestly bored when creating a limit?</p>
<p>lol.</p>
<p>Since we're now throwing in quotes here are a few that I found intriguing:</p>
<p>"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."- Thomas Jefferson</p>
<p>"Children don't spontaneously pray, speak in tongues or read Scriptures; they have to learn these behaviors. Religions require invasive social construction for their perpetuation, for they are always one generation away from extinction."</p>
<p>"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men."- Carl Sagan</p>
<p>"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."- Galileo</p>
<p>and finally:</p>
<p>"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."- Hitler</p>
<p>Just some things to ponder about.</p>
<p>I'm a Christian. But I'm surprisingly liberal-ish, but I prefer to be coined as a centrist.</p>
<p>My parents both have PhD's from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. My dad is a prison minister. My dad is so freaking right wing it's not funny. He listens to O'Reilly and Hannity daily. That's some scary stuff.</p>
<p>Anyway, back to me. Last year I had an "enlightenment" of sorts. I began to accept all religions, and began to criticize Christianity a lot more. I think it's pretty bad off right now. This whole evangelical conservative movement is tainting Christianity. People think Christian, and also think "Close-minded biggot"... I support homosexual marriage. I realize that if I was gay (which I'm not) I would probably want to get married. Haven't told that to my parents though, they'd probably try to brainwash me :P. </p>
<p>But seriously, my parents have gotten a lot less crazy. I even have them watching the Simpsons nightly now, and they even laugh at the jokes on Christianity.</p>
<p>I'm Christian for very romantic reasons... I see all the beauty in the world and the universe, and I can not attribute it to random accidents. But I would die supporting anyone's right to do so.</p>
<p>Blah, hope that isn't too incoherent.. Just rambling I guess.</p>
<p>I'm gonna drag back old waters and look at Woodwork's quote that I passed over in the past:</p>
<p>*"To those who hate "religious wars":</p>
<p>Who are the mass-murders of our time:</p>
<p>1) Pope John-Paul II, Dali Llama, etc
2) Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter (all religious men who fought secular wars)
3) Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot (All atheists)</p>
<p> ........answer: 3"*</p>
<p>Compare hitler's quote from mein kampf to a biblical scripture:</p>
<p>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."- Hitler</p>
<p>"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." -Colossians 3:17</p>
<p>As for the commies, communism is a religion- it works exactly on the same basis and ideals as religion as explained in detail at:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=238%5B/url%5D">http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=238</a></p>
<p>w/ highlights:</p>
<p>"Like all religions, Communism is irrational, dogmatic and based on faith rather than science. Just like Christianity and Islam, Communism had its Holy Books which were treated as Holy Scripture, namely the writings of Lenin, Mao, Marx and others--all of which were far from scientific."</p>
<p>"As with Christianity and Islam, Communism attracted followers by promising a pie-in-the-sky heaven to the faithful. The difference being that the Communist heaven would be sometime in the future when all people would be happy and equal under Communism rather than after death."</p>
<p>"Like most religions, Communism operated on irrational faith; people in Communist countries had to have absolute faith in the Communist system and its leaders. Thinking for oneself was strictly verboten in Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, and Ho's Vietnam. Those who questioned Communism and its leaders were treated as heretics by the Communist state."</p>
<p>yackityak:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>How does this explain the curse on Ham's son to be a servant for life w/ the mark of a dark skin? Why don't women have long covered hair? If the bible was the literal words of god why do you need to make your own interpretations in respect to the modern era? Why aren't women modest today? Why do they choose to go in the workforce instead of humbly serving their husbands at home and performing the typical household duties?</p></li>
<li><p>Regardless of a plan here on earth, is god's way of not rewarding you w/ death after an accident his way of punishing you by making you stay longer on earth instead of with him? is death not desirable so you can finally be one with him? Why do people who go into accidents w/o a religion come out w/ one when really one should be cursing the earth they tread because they just realized they dodged a chance to be w/ god and must stay that much longer on this earth?</p></li>
<li><p>It doesn't make sense to me still that god would give mass murderers a seat by him in their afterlife when they murder his other supposed creations (I certainly wouldn't want to live an eternity w/ this man, especially if I were his victim when I die- would it still be a "heaven" for me if I must live an eternity w/ this guy alongside me? Is it justice morally to have to be in his presence the rest of my life knowing the grief he caused me when I was alive?) when he does not give 1 iota of a chance to mere children who do nothing more than say words (calling a man bald at the most).</p></li>
<li><p>Throughout history the war of the west on the "orientals," particularly the Arabs, has been a war waged on the principles of religion- this is not something new and is rooted since the very beginnings of America in its principle of the "white man's burden." Forte, Bush's advisor on Islam and an advisor on the war in iraq, is a Christian who constantly discusses the backwardness of the Islamic faith and this is the information Bush takes in as facts.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I've never heard in the news that Mel Gibson ever made a donation of any of his profits from passions to charity.</p>
<p>The disciples' deaths are no different than the suicide commited by a cult over something as hypocritical as the belief that aliens or the hailey comet was coming to destroy the earth- if their faith in their belief was wavering why did they not choose to walk away and live (because we all know that hailey did not destroy the earth at the time because we're still alive today) knowing that their beliefs were lies instead of committing suicide, the ultimate sacrifice to the comet?</p>