What should count for course credit toward a university degree?

Parent Cafe
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<p>This is addressing the differences between different schools awarding different credit hours for the same class:</p>

<p>My D is at one of those 4 x 4 schools at a LAC. This fall she took beginning Arabic. Several of her friends who went to the in-state public also were taking beginning Arabic. Her class was 4 credit hours. Their class was 5 credit hours. They were all using the same textbook.</p>

<p>My D’s class finished with the textbook half-way through the semester, and began on a second textbook. The other school used the one textbook for the entire semester.</p>

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<p>I am uniquely qualified to comment, since I have not one but two credits for bowling on my undergraduate transcript. :D</p>

<p>We were required to complete two single-credit courses in physical education. I took four but dropped two (jogging because of shin splints and yoga because of boredom). They were graded pass-or-fail and were not factored into the GPA.</p>

<p>The stated purpose of this requirement was to force students to branch out and try something new. Not all did; some stuck with activities that they already knew they enjoyed. I and most of my friends tried something unfamiliar and made some new friends in the process. I, for example, had never bowled before but now bowl several times a year with friends or family, which I probably would not have done had I not tried it in college.</p>

<p>The OP raised two questions: Why is this an American phenomenon, and why are such activities more likely to appear on a lesser school’s transcripts?</p>

<p>I think it’s an American phenomenon simply because diversity—being well-rounded in experience, interests, and friendships—is such a prominent facet of contemporary American culture. It’s the same reason that my mathematics degree required only one-third of my credits to be in mathematics courses. I’m not familiar with many other countries’ higher education systems, but I have been asked by numerous foreign students, “Why do we have to study literature/history/biology when I just want to study math/engineering/computer programming?” The answer is that American undergraduate education is designed to produce well-rounded citizens, not experts.</p>

<p>I see both an obvious and a not-so-obvious explanation of phys-ed and other non-academic endeavors being accepted for credit by lesser schools more so than by prestigious schools. The obvious explanation is that students at lesser schools are less academically astute, and therefore can not be retained if they are continuously, rigorously challenged intellectually. This is certainly true for many, but just as certainly not for all, students on local and regional campuses.</p>

<p>A less obvious explanation is that students at more prestigious colleges and universities tend to be more self-actualizing and driven, or at least open-minded, and therefore do not have to be led by the hand toward new horizons. Kids at lesser schools, on the other hand, are more likely to be first-generation college students, to have never traveled outside their own state or region let alone the country, and so on. To many such students, a course in, say, 16th-century English poetry may be so alien to their interests and experience as to be worthless, whereas a for-credit experience in, say, caring for abandoned animals could be a life-changing experience that leads them to a fulfilling career that they never would have imagined otherwise.</p>

<p>Which is all another way of saying that colleges are businesses selling products (education) into markets (communities or demographics) and must appeal to certain consumers (students and their families) in order to do so, and the products and associated selling tactics of Princeton and Southwest Missouri State are going to be as different as those of Aquavit and Busch Light.</p>

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<p>What Mantori said!</p>

<p>My kids attended HS in Canada and in my limited experience, the well-rounded HS experience is not what is valued by Canadian Universities, it is all about Provincial exam scores. Is that correct, Star or Always?</p>

<p>US universities value GPA, SAT & the ECs- sports, arts, etc.- that well-rounded student. It is a cultural thing. Then that same college expects that student to continue being well-rounded.</p>

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<p>BUT some of these classes DO fulfill core course requirements (like my kid’s orchestra fulfilling the fine arts requirement). If the school requires students to take a core of courses, then anything they take should be counted in the mix. </p>

<p>Grad schools typically look at the student’s performance in the major of application. If the student is able to fulfill their degree requirements AND take a few fluff courses too, it will not affect grad school applications as the grad school will be looking at the courses in the major of the grad application.</p>

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<p>When I was in college in the 70s, I got credit for a class in bowling, some sort of dancing, jewelrymaking, snorkeling, conversational Spanish and others (generally one course and one credit per term). I took it in addition to a full regular load in academic subjects and my major. I took all of them P/NP, rather than for a grade–don’t believe they were offered any other way. I also did a ton of ECs that didn’t show up anywhere in any transcript. In my senior year, I asked & was given permission to write an honors thesis and graduate with honors, though they had NOT created any honors program in my department and I had to cobble together the advisors to guide me. Most of my courses were 3 semester credits. I notice that my kids have some courses that are 1, 2, 3 or 4 credits. I’m not convinced that the number of credits accurately reflects the workload.</p>

<p>I was thrilled that S took up rockclimbing and took an interest in geology while pursuing EE. He even helped author a few papers and presented a poster on the subject at an international conference. I think these things are a very valuable part of college and what I encourage my kids to do to expand themselves beyond their field.</p>

<p>In law school, I took tumbling/gymnastics with my BF who was getting his MS in ecology (it as a couse in the regular U)and it helped me get through law school by keeping me fit & helping me de-stress. I don’t think it ever showed up anywhere on my transcript. They did NOT make me pay extra to take that course in addition to my law school load. It was crucial to my health!</p>

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<p>Well said, Mantori!</p>

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<p>I can’t speak for every province but there are not provincial exams in Ontario. I don’t think there have been provincial exams for high school grads since the days when my H was in high school and that was a long time ago! </p>

<p>Although the admissions process for Canadian universities is much simpler than it is to U.S. schools, thankfully, I don’t think that means that Canadian universities don’t value the “well-rounded student”. Canadian kids aren’t any less well-rounded than their American counterparts. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I think the big difference is that, in both high school and university, Canadians take advantage of opportunities to participate in and explore different interests on an extracurricular basis, while Americans do so for credits. As I mentioned earlier, although it may have been on the other thread where this topic originated, my Ds played in orchestras/bands all through high school, they ran and wrote for the school paper, did the yearbook, etc. No one got academic credits for those things here, they are all ECs, unlike many places in the U.S. Similarly, in university, there is an abundance of different groups, clubs, sports, activities, organizations (at the school 3 of my Ds attend/attended there are 300 of them) that would cover virtually every conceivable interest of the student population.</p>

<p>It seems that some here are taking my view as some sort of indication that I do not value the arts. Nothing could be further from the truth. One of my Ds graduated from Tisch with a BFA in Drama and is a professional actor and playwright. Our family has had connections to the theatre community, all over North America, since the time when my grandparents were young. We have hundreds of friends, and many family members, who are in the business. I’m on the Board of a theatre company here in Toronto and I can probably count on one hand the number of Broadway, touring, and regional shows that I have not seen in the past 25 years. We are season subscribers to three different theatre companies in Toronto, travel to NYC at least 5 or 6 times a year to see shows, spend a week every summer at Stratford. We also attend the symphony and ballet in our city, and even occasionally opera, although that isn’t my favorite. :)</p>

<p>I am all in favor of people becoming patrons of the arts! I just find it unusual that people are willing to pay the exorbitant U.S. college tuition rates for that type of interest course which is, in many places, readily available outside the academic arena. And to clarify, I’m not talking about students who are majoring or minoring in the subject. It’s an interesting discussion!</p>

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<p>AW- mmmm, I did not mean to imply Canadian kids are not well-rounded, au contraire, the families we knew were extremely well-rounded and don’t even get me started on comparing the sports experience for a gifted athlete. Let’s just say none of the parents of DDs teammates in Canada ever tried to sabotage her :wink: And the Canadian schools had a lot of A,B, C, D teams so there was comparable competition for various skill levels, so it was all around healthier than the US ‘Friday Night Lights’ experience likely would have been ;)</p>

<p>In BC, university admissions seemed to be all about Provincials. And I found myself explaining the American system to many families who wanted to send kids there.</p>

<p>In my limited experience, most of those “easy” (as in not thinking really hard about physics or calculus) EC styled classes were not an extra charge, but were part of the full time = 12-18 units, so you could pick up 1 unit of photo or pottery or dance or PE. Having a class forced you to improve, hopefully, and be disciplined to commit to that regular time.</p>

<p>In the UK there is no GE at all as far as I know, and in England it’s a 3 year BS, Scotland has a 4 year BS, not sure if they add in more exploratory time for GE or not. It seems like Canada is part way between the UK and the US. Canada does not require classes in the extras as part of the graduation requirements and does not require proof of proficiency in those ECs for admissions like many US schools do. I think many US universities allow the student to take these extras without they fulfilling the list of boxes to check for ones degree, so an engineering major with a good many GE & major requirements might have no time or space to add those classes, whereas a major that had fewer units as part of the graduation requirements would allow time for exploration.</p>

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<p>While I agree with much of what mantori posted,

just makes my skin crawl.<br>
So, rich kids are all so enightened that they just naturally take a wide variety of classes, but middle and especially lower/middle class kids need prodding?<br>
I live in a high income area (not that I fit the demographics) and that’s the biggest laugh I have had all day.</p>

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<p>I second that skin crawl dragonmom. So really bright kids are open minded and less bright kids and poor kids are closed minded. That is a very closed minded opinion for mantori to have. S/he must have gone to one of those lesser schools.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to point something out - historically speaking - that hadn’t been brought up yet.</p>

<p>Actually many, if not nearly all of the country’s most “prestigious” and academic colleges and universities require phys ed courses!</p>

<p>A number of the country’s oldest private universities had (or, in some cases, still have) PE or similar type requirements on the books from the days when they were, in many respects, finishing schools for the country’s elite young men. By requiring things like swimming tests or phys ed requirements, these schools (think Ivy League and the like) were establishing standards of “manhood” in keeping with the image of the kind of young man they wanted to ‘produce’ - wealthy, heterosexual WASP male “leaders.” Many different groups - including at various points, Jews, immigrants, disabled people, and gays - were perceived to be “weak” and thus kept from being admitted on various grounds, but including those of “vigor.” There have been several good journal articles, and even some books, documenting the history of using standards of “manhood” to discriminate against various groups in college admissions. </p>

<p>These requirements have shifted back and forth over the past two hundred years. Both World War I and World War II saw an influx of PE and physical requirements back into the graduation requirements. In some points at some places this was a way to ensure students were “troop-ready” to be officers in various military units (at Harvard the entire freshman class was marched back and forth in the Yard during the beginning days of WWI - the school administration assumed they’d all be picked up as unit officers). Following WW II, granting credit for non-academic coursework (things like leadership, music, military coursework, and physical education) were a way to quickly grant bachelor’s degrees to students who had left the university just shy of a credit or two to be temporary officers in the military and had now returned (often older and with wife and child in tow).</p>

<p>Physical requirements were often a way of ensuring the college produced “strong men” - or women :slight_smile: - and most of the country’s most prestigious universities had departments of hygiene or fitness in keeping with this image of strapping, “healthy,” young men :smiley: </p>

<p>In case you’re curious, these schools still currently have phys ed requirements for graduation:
-Dartmouth requires 3 terms of PE and passing a 50-yard swim test
-Cornell requires 2 courses of PE and passing a swim test described as: "The test consists of entering the deep end of the pool with a feet-first jump and making a continuous seventy-five-yard swim using front, back, and optional strokes. Any student who cannot pass the swim test is required to include swimming in his or her program of physical education before choosing electives. "
-Columbia requires students to pass PHED C1001-C1002 (2 semesters of PE) plus a swim test OR substituting a swimming class for one of the PE classes if failing the swim test
-The University of Chicago requires three credits of PE (including at least 1 in the “Personal Fitness” category) plus a swim test
-MIT requires EIGHT (!) credits of PE plus passing a swim test
-Colgate requires two classes, to be completed by the end of sophomore year
-Williams requires four quarters of PE classes by the end of the sophomore year, plus a swim test
-Middlebury requires 2 PE courses
-Wellesley requires 2 PE courses “preferably by the end of sophomore year”
-Mount Holyoke requires 6 PE units completed by the end of junior year
-Bryn Mawr requires 8 PE credits and passage of a swim test by the end of junior year
-Barnard requires 1 PE course completed during the first year of college and at least one other PE course by the end of junior year
-Pomona requires successful completion of 1 PE course by the end of the first year
-Swarthmore requires 4 PE classes and a swim test completed by the end of the sophomore year (or you aren’t able to register for junior year housing or courses!)
-Bates requires 4 credits of PE
-Haverford requires 6 quarters of physical education, one of which is the “Intro To Fitness” class, prior to the start of junior year</p>

<p>There may be others that I’m not aware of. They are typically graded P/F and count only towards graduation requirements. Many of the LACs (if not all) allow students’ athletic team participation to count for PE credit, or some of it – meaning that at some of the schools (I think something like 50% of Williams students play on a NCAA sport or something like that?) many students are getting their credits that way.</p>

<p>This issue came to a head a while back when a young woman had a head injury (maybe even died?) while taking a beg. skiing class for PE at Dartmouth. I remember there being some discussion that the woman only took the class because of the PE requirement though I don’t remember the outcome of the whole scenario.</p>

<p>Just some important context for this whole discussion.</p>

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<p>Did any of you have a program like this – mini-courses offered through the student center? These are inexpensive courses offered for enrichment purposes through the student center; you pay a fairly nominal fee and don’t get credit. I took German through this, as I wanted to learn German, but not enough to merit one full course when I had a crowded schedule.</p>

<p>The kinds of things offered are:<br>
•Ballroom and Latin Dance
•Watercolor Painting and Drawing
•Black & White and Digital Photography
•Wine Appreciation and Drink Mixing
•Fiction Writing
•Harmonica
•Beginning and Advanced Pool
•Pilates and Tai Chi
•Belly Dancing
•Spanish, German, and French
•Ceramics
•Meditation
•Hip-Hop Dance
•Korean, Chinese, and Ukrainian
•Meditation
•Beginning and Intermediate Guitar
•Cake Decorating
•Knitting
•Yoga
•Jewelry Making
•Juggling</p>

<p>[Norris</a> University Center Mini Courses :: Northwestern University](<a href=“Norris University Center - Northwestern University”>Norris University Center - Northwestern University)</p>

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<p>Isn’t it also the case that in the US, “college” and “university” are often used interchangeably, while in Canada, “college” usually refers to either a “community college” or “vocational school” (in US terminology), while “university” is typically used for bachelor’s degree granting schools?</p>

<p>And yes, PE activities courses at US universities are common for something like 0.5 or 1 credit (out of 120 needed to graduate), often on a passed / not-passed basis only.</p>

<p>Some universities offer academic courses with varying numbers of credit units, with 3 or 4 being the most common, though 1, 2, 5, or 6 credit unit courses exist (with 15 per semester being the “normal course load”). But it is often the case that the credit for the course is not proportional to the workload. Courses with labs, computer programming, or large term projects (e.g. chemistry, biology, computer science) can be considerably more work than courses without any of those things (e.g. math, economics), even if they are given the same credit units.</p>

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<p>At Mt Holyoke, our tour guide mentioned the following class as part of their fitness options:</p>

<p>Fitness Walking with Fido
Students will be transported via College transportation to and from a local Rescue
Center. Students will walk in pairs or groups of three. As often as possible, students will
walk with dogs, matched to them according to the dogs’ age, ability, and fitness level. </p>

<p>I think H blanched a bit at the thought of $50K/year going to our daughter to walk the dog when we can’t even get her to do that for free at home! Honestly, that seems like it should just be an animal welfare club rather than a class.</p>

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<p>"A less obvious explanation is that students at more prestigious colleges and universities tend to be more self-actualizing and driven, or at least open-minded, and therefore do not have to be led by the hand toward new horizons. Kids at lesser schools, on the other hand, are more likely to be first-generation college students, to have never traveled outside their own state or region let alone the country, and so on. "</p>

<p>-Wishful thinking to provide reason for paying elite school tuition. So absolutely not true, not even remotedly close to reality at any school, from elite to lowest ranked state college. More so, many from these lowest ranked state school get accepted later to top graduate schools (if they choose to apply there) or find awesome places of employment. First-generation, never traveled?? Do you know that some state schools have campuses in Europe and various programs for education abroad? Let alone that lots of kids have gone abroad several times before college. Many valedictorians from private HS’s are at no ranked state colleges that are close to home in Honors programs on full tuition or very large Merit scholarships. It was their preference, they are just too smart to spend whole tons of $$ on UG. They rely on their ability to do very well at any place and move on to the next step in their lives as stars no matter what UG they decided to attend. Everybody is entitled to their opinion but this one is very remote from fact and based purely on person’s imagination.</p>

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<p>The terminology is correct but the colleges here are different than community colleges in some ways. They offer full-time programs, continuing ed programs, and special programs geared to those who are looking to upgrade their skills and improve their careers (post-grad programs). They also offer programs to new immigrants to assist them in setting into their new country, both language and skills based and job training. This is the type of full-time study programs offered at one in the Toronto area:</p>

<p>[Programs</a> A-Z Index Sheridan College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning, Oakville, Brampton, Mississauga](<a href=“http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/programs%20and%20courses/full-time%20programs/programs%20a-z%20index.aspx]Programs”>http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/programs%20and%20courses/full-time%20programs/programs%20a-z%20index.aspx)</p>

<p>Some do grant Bachelors in conjunction with an Ontario university. In any case, I’m not sure how the differences in terminology are relevant to the discussion here.</p>

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<p><<i second=“” that=“” skin=“” crawl=“” dragonmom=“”>></i></p><i second=“” that=“” skin=“” crawl=“” dragonmom=“”>

<p>Put my in that number, as well.</p>
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<p><<actually many,=“” if=“” not=“” nearly=“” all=“” of=“” the=“” country’s=“” most=“” “prestigious”=“” and=“” academic=“” colleges=“” universities=“” require=“” phys=“” ed=“” courses!=“”>></actually></p>

<p>Penn State requires 3 hours of “Health and Physical Activity” classes. The available classes range from dance to nutrition to various sports/activities (golf, tennis, jogging, ice skating, yoga, etc).</p>

<p>In my sons’ HS, being part of the marching band counted toward the required PE credit. Ironically, as physically demanding as marching band is - it doesn’t count for this HPA requirements at PSU. Oh well…</p>

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<p>Removed double post!</p>

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<p><<a less=“” obvious=“” explanation=“” is=“” that=“” students=“” at=“” more=“” prestigious=“” colleges=“” and=“” universities=“” tend=“” to=“” be=“” self-actualizing=“” driven,=“” or=“” least=“” open-minded,=“” therefore=“” do=“” not=“” have=“” led=“” by=“” the=“” hand=“” toward=“” new=“” horizons.=“” kids=“” lesser=“” schools,=“” on=“” other=“” hand,=“” are=“” likely=“” first-generation=“” college=“” students,=“” never=“” traveled=“” outside=“” their=“” own=“” state=“” region=“” let=“” alone=“” country,=“” so=“” on.=“”>></a></p><a less=“” obvious=“” explanation=“” is=“” that=“” students=“” at=“” more=“” prestigious=“” colleges=“” and=“” universities=“” tend=“” to=“” be=“” self-actualizing=“” driven,=“” or=“” least=“” open-minded,=“” therefore=“” do=“” not=“” have=“” led=“” by=“” the=“” hand=“” toward=“” new=“” horizons.=“” kids=“” lesser=“” schools,=“” on=“” other=“” hand,=“” are=“” likely=“” first-generation=“” college=“” students,=“” never=“” traveled=“” outside=“” their=“” own=“” state=“” region=“” let=“” alone=“” country,=“” so=“” on.=“”>

<p>Erm…Yikes?</p>

<p>From this description, it sounds like The Lesser League is a breeding ground (or at least a receiving area) for vapid cretins. Thank goodness someone thinks to lead those students by the hand toward [brave] new horizons. </p>

<p>On the other hand, the fact that theories like this are seriously proferred here only strengthens my resolve to have my kids spend their college years with the hoi polloi of a “lesser” college…</p>
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