<p>OP- has he ever had a job? Preferably one where he’s surrounded by people who don’t have a college degree?</p>
<p>One of our kids was a lazy slacker; an exceptionally easy kid to raise (never in trouble in school, always cheerful and respectful at home and with his teachers) but wouldn’t expend a single extra calorie on schoolwork if he didn’t have to.</p>
<p>A summer of working the night cleaning crew at a fast food restaurant cured him pretty much. It was smelly, greasy, and sometimes disgusting work; his boss (the assistant manager) would wax wistfully about coulda/shoulda/woulda regarding college; his co-workers were mostly hard working strivers who would have given an arm to have the opportunity to go to college via the bank of Mom and Dad.</p>
<p>He went from “if I can’t get into college I can always get a job” to “I will do whatever it takes to take advantage of the college experience” and he did.</p>
<p>So if your son hasn’t worked a real job (I’m not disparaging camp counselor or sailing instructor- but those jobs for HS kids means he’s surrounded by other college bound teens) maybe he needs some perspective. I cringe when I hear “Gap year” if it means floating around the world on a “program” financed by mom and dad. But taking a year to work, get real experience at the kind of work which is available to an 18 year old with no skills and no training-- that might be the ticket.</p>
<p>Financing a Freshman year in the hopes that he’ll wake up… yes it can happen. But read through the threads of kids whose parents didn’t think they were ready for college who crashed and burned first semester. It is sobering.</p>
<p>And for the kids who manage to scrape by with a BA, still under achieving, and still phoning it in academically- it’s not like the corporate world (or any other employer for that matter) is looking to hire the indifferent student who shows up with a degree but not a strong story to tell along with that resume.</p>
<p>Any reason why he wouldn’t want to work for a year to get more focus on his academic goals???</p>
<p>For next year I would suggest a written-down agreement of reasonable, clear, specific, agreed-upon expectations–not “advice”. Not reaching those expectations = not going to college the following year.</p>
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<p>Here is a good place to use natural consequences: spending money on hobbies means that one cannot purchase college. You could add an expectation that he earn a certain amount of money next year.</p>
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<p>On the other hand, though, I must say that this comment worries me. Maybe he simply cannot pull off what your D can pull off? In the unstinting ability to apply himself, to be a workhorse. Maybe he gives up because of that? Maybe he feels he cannot be as good as D in your eyes so why try?</p>
<p>Same thing here- there needs to be some perspective. </p>
<p>It sounds like the kid took the SAT once and got a 1980- which is nearly two standard deviations above the normed score. He is ready for college since thats probably better than 90% of juniors.</p>
<p>And yet we are hearing advice not so different from what was given to the student who wrote in about his younger brother who got a 600 Sat and a GPA like the sqrt(2). </p>
<p>A 1980 will be able to survive in the world outside of a group home setting. He will be fine. And maybe it takes sarcasm to underscore that point. </p>
<p>I agree with the idea that you find someone doing the minimum amount of work to skate by somewhat offensive and a missed opportunity. But there isnt much mauiluver is going to be able to do to change someone who doesnt see the need to change. He might be equally willing to light a fire under his own ass working McDonalds fry line, Merchant Marine, CC or a 4 year college. I dont see any of those being decisive in making him “ready” for college, since we are not talking about readiness in an academic or study skills sense. </p>
<p>If #1 son is expecting mauiluver to kick in for his college, it is perfectly reasonable for her make it clear that she isnt going to have her money wasted by someone who one intends to do the minimum possible work. But I dont think that is the conversation that occurred. </p>
<p>I am not going to tell anyone I know their kid better than they do. But I worry this message of “not good enough” is getting heard as “you’re not good enough”. I dont know what sort of hopes and plans you had for him, but the reality is that even if he isnt measuring up to them or his potential, he isnt a terrible student (“As his parents we’ve made it pretty clear we don’t think he’s ready for college”).</p>
<p>I think what is needed here is more of the old praise sandwich, or maybe the openfaced praise sandwich.</p>
<p>If he is getting out of school everyday @1:00, what is he doing with the rest of his time to prepare for life after highschool?
Volunteering, work, sports teams?
Both my kids took a gap year, it is becoming fairly common to do so, some schools even suggest it.</p>
<p>ARG- you are entitled to your opinion. But if the OP considers college more than just a four year opportunity to finance beer pong and fun parties for her son, thank I think being concerned about his college readiness (completely independent of his scores) is quite legitimate. College has some wonderful social and extra-curricular opportunities, but at its core, it’s an academic experience, and a kid who doesn’t seem turned on by academics seems to be a poor bet if finances are a concern. How many people do you know in real life who are now in their 30’s and struggling to go back and finish the degree that wasn’t so important to them back when they were 19 and sleeping through their classes? I know many. Every single one wishes they could have back those tuition dollars (whether their own, their parents, or borrowed) so they could do a clean “do over” now that they are better focused, more mature, and ready to knuckle down.</p>
<p>There’s someone who works for me who has a partially completed degree. My company will pay for her to finish; she has a choice of a physical campus or a virtual campus; she’s super smart and would improve her professional opportunities in industry quite significantly. But she’s got kids, a commute, and feels that right now, she’s juggling more than she can handle even without adding college to the mix.</p>
<p>It’s a shame.</p>
<p>So if OP’s kid starts college at 19 rather than 18; but does so ready to jump in and actually take advantage of the opportunities that are there-- isn’t that better than telling him to show up on campus and hope that he doesn’t wash out in a year?</p>
<p>His SATs are fine, but his GPA isn’t. Not to mention his mediocrity-oriented mindset of “That’s good enough”. The last is the main issue as it won’t get one far in life…especially considering one of those stats isn’t exactly anything to write home about. </p>
<p>This very mindset if continued into college will not only increase his chances of not graduating on time/at all, but also cause him much hardship when looking for jobs and moreso…good grad programs. </p>
<p>Some older college classmates are still being asked about their undergrad 1.x/2.x GPAs and/or to explain that academic suspension decades after graduating college. Rough, especially in this economy.</p>
<p>If his maturity level or willingness to take college seriously is a problem, that’s a different issue, but his academics are more than good enough to go to a four-year college. (And if everyone with kids they didn’t think worked hard enough in high school kept their kids out of college, there’d be lots of empty spots. )</p>
<p>ADad you did pick up on something. Do you know why my D is a workhorse? Because she watched FOR YEARS her older brother skate by in school with A’s, she had to work for her grades, but work she did, in order to be as good as her brother… Her work habits continued as did his, he could no longer just skate by doing next to nothing when he hit high school and we have tried ever since to try and turn him around. You are right we should have written down our requirements for him. His classes with the exception of the AP Physics are all easy courses he should be able to pass with A’s no problem, I could have overlooked the C+ in Physics… </p>
<p>Blossom, he has NOT had a job and refuses to get one. He lifeguards at a beach where he literally just sits and does nothing in the summer. When I sit down with him tonight, getting a job will not be optional, he will work. He turns 18 very soon and homelessness won’t feel good. We keep telling him he needs a job, but I don’t think he’s heard a thing we’ve said over the last year. </p>
<p>Thumper, he had full schedules his first 3 years, he had very few requirements to fulfill left, so yes, we did want him to fill his schedule with classes he could pass with A’s, instead he chose to go half days his senior year AND not get a job, we figured at nearly 18 he had to do this year on his own and we would be here for advice if he wanted it, instead he just informs me this morning that I have to pay for his college applications that are now due… It came as a shock as we’ve had this discussion about our concerns and he has yet to address them in a meaningful way.</p>
<p>I’ve heard a lot that’s been said here, I think I have got to be firm about community college or a year at the state university with a minimum GPA to return, written down. And he has to work since he was unable to obtain any merit scholarships due to his GPA, which is something we always warned him about.</p>
<p>One thing we’ve also mentioned but he is not interested in is Americorp or a trade school, I think either of these would be a good choice for him. He has taken a short CAD course that was quite basic but he liked it, he could take that type of program at trade school and make himself marketable, but he doesn’t see it.</p>
<p>First off- objectively the kid is ready for college. </p>
<p>Secondly, I think people are likely to kick in when they are ready. Kennedy stunk up the place at Choate. Romney was undistinguished at Crankbrook. Obama had middling grades at Occidental. Parents forum had a story on John Gurdon who was 250/250 at Eton. People change when they internalize its int their interest to change. </p>
<p>I am all for kids getting a dose of the real world. I am objecting to the way its being framed.</p>
<p>Yes, sounds like he has been biding his time and playing deaf until he can slip away to college. I would not want to waste my money on a four year college for him at this point, either.</p>
<p>Argy, “ready for college” is subjective. You are not the one being asked to pony up a minimum of $20K a year (and likely more) for this kid’s education. His parents do NOT owe him tuition. I think most of us know that a kid like this will skate & slack as long as it is allowed. His parents are doing him a favor in requiring him to put some skin in the game in terms of effort and finances. If he is “ready for college” but has neglected to do the things that would help pay for it when he is capable (work harder to be eligible for merit aid, study for and retake the SAT, work at a job and save some money instead of blowing it on hobbies), then I don’t see why his parents should stretch their finances for him. If I were them I would keep the money in my pocket until he shows that he can do these things. They told him what they expected this year, and he didn’t believe them. Time for consequences.</p>
<p>Yes I also know kids like this who ended up doing fine in a 4 year college, but I also know several who didn’t. Not trying to be mean just realistic. In one case one parent wanted the child to attend the nearby cc, but the other parent insisted on a 4 year school. A year and a half later the child had flunked out. Still had loans to pay and few credits to show for it. I know other similar stories. We live in a relatively wealthy area where most kids go on to a four year school and there is a lot of peer pressure amoung both the students and the parents.</p>
<p>To quote ARG
"If #1 son is expecting mauiluver to kick in for his college, it is perfectly reasonable for her make it clear that she isnt going to have her money wasted by someone who one intends to do the minimum possible work. But I dont think that is the conversation that occurred. "</p>
<p>THAT’S EXACTLY THE CONVERSATION THAT WAS HAD, almost word for word. His attitude is a problem, “just good enough” isn’t enough for me to shell out another 150K on his education because “just good enough” will get you fired in the real world. </p>
<p>EmeraldKity, he does get out at 1 and we don’t actually know what he does, he rolls in the house around 6 then complains he has nothing to do. Weekends are the same, plays video games complaining he has nothing to do. Meanwhile his high school has plenty of extra curricular’s he could have involved himself in but didn’t. We gave up trying to get him to volunteer anywhere.</p>
<p>Blossom you are exactly right, our son has turned out to be a partier who surrounded himself with like minded kids whose parents don’t mind the activity. We do mind the activity. His grades were no better before he started the partying so that can’t be used as an excuse. We didn’t actually find out about his partying until a year ago, we were able to curb it for much of the remainder of last school year but he got back into it around Memorial Day. So I think I have a right to be very concerned. All I’ve heard since he scored the 1980 on his SAT’s is how great he thinks they were. What it tells me is he was able to score that number second month of Junior year yet he has a 2.9 for a GPA with only 4 rigorous courses. I haven’t given up that S could turn out to be an excellent student, I just don’t think he will be one by September because I’ve not seen any indication to the contrary…</p>
<p>How good that score is depends on the high school culture/peer environment. At most K-12 schools, a 1980 SAT would be considered good-great. </p>
<p>At the NYC public magnet I attended or its public/private academic peers, that score would be be considered below-average. In short, something to be somewhat ashamed of, not brag about.</p>
<p>It may be hard to get serious about skills needed to be productive after high school if your peer group is equally freaked out and trying to distract themselves by pretending that it doesnt matter what they do.
Im assuming no drug/alcohol problem, learning disability, anxiety or depression that needs outside intervention, just general senioritis?</p>
<p>I would come up with a short list of objectives to guarantee your support after high school, depending on how he meets those goals you could feel comfortable with him going away to college or maybe it would mean he is living at home & attending community college.</p>
<p>Programs like Americorps are worth considering. It helps high school grads or older, earn a voucher that can be used toward tuition or loans, it gives them another peer group and teaches them the value of giving back as well as organizational skills and experience working with a team.
[url=<a href=“http://www.americorps.gov/]AmeriCorps[/url”>http://www.americorps.gov/]AmeriCorps[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Arg, all due respect, but if the OP were a Kennedy or a Bush my guess is he/she wouldn’t be posting on an anonymous message board for advice. If your kid goes to Choate, you don’t a bunch of strangers to help you figure out college for your kid- there’s a team of uber experienced professionals who do that for a living.</p>
<p>It’s the plain vanilla folks who end up tearing out their hair at the roots because the GC’s at their HS are too consumed with the kid living in a homeless shelter or the pregnant 16 year old. (Not that these kids don’t need help- and lots of it.) But your typical HS is not going to be aggressively advocating for a kid who is finishing HS on time, on track for college, and doesn’t need a GC to help him find a lawyer to emancipate himself.</p>
<p>And the mere presence of thousands of kids in college right now who are partying and “just getting by” is really irrelevant to the OP. Or just confirms the suspicion that the world doesn’t need one more slacker enrolled in college.</p>
<p>OP- a job. Preferably one that involves interacting with the non-college going public. Even my non-slacker kids found it eye opening to meet adults who support themselves (and sometimes a child or two) at a minimum wage job. These folks did not have a nickel to spare. </p>
<p>Your S may decide that working hard in college is a lesser evil when he sees the lifestyle of people trying to make it without a degree. And these are not people looking for a handout- just people working minimum wage jobs with no hope for advancement.</p>
<p>“His attitude is a problem, “just good enough” isn’t enough for me to shell out another 150K on his education because “just good enough” will get you fired in the real world.”</p>
<p>It sounds like he doesn’t take you seriously. He doesn’t believe that there will actually be any consequences in the future because there haven’t been any in the past. You told him to sign up for a full schedule and get a job, and he didn’t do either one, and he’s still living the good life in your house. So he’s learned that you don’t really mean what you say – it is just advice, not requirements. That is one thing that has to change.</p>
<p>Time for a quiet, adult conversation with both parents about what you will pay for under what circumstances, and the requirements for continuing to live in the house after he turns 18. If he won’t even have the conversation, then you don’t write any checks for application fees. Simple adult choices for him. (Simple, not easy! Making this change will be hard, but the path is clear.)</p>
<p>It was early on in my CC travels where I heard the phrase</p>
<p>“Love the kid on the couch”. </p>
<p>I looked at the Naviance scattergram for UMASS-Boston, just as a proxy for where kids like this go. This kid easily gets into this school, and his SAT is far above the norm. In my state this kid would still be a candidate for the flagship UMASS-Amherst, though it’s only a match there. </p>
<p>Many graduates of these schools go on to lead productive lives and make a decent living, start small businesses, coach little league, etc. I don’t see any reason to beat up a high school senior about it. It’s too late. Work with what you have. Make him have skin in the game, yes, but beat him over the head and try to make him into something that he could be but doesn’t want to be it isn’t going to work and will likely backfire.</p>
<p>Cobrat, really! Give it a rest! What people at Stuy think is of no relevance for someone who doesn’t go to Stuy, and provides no helpful information to aid the OP or her son.</p>
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