<p>well Yale, and Harvard/Columbia have given us the last two Presidents… neither of whom are mental giants</p>
<p>I think it’s the last FOUR presidents.</p>
<p>The biggest impact to changing up the Ivy League would be that the school leaving would then be able to offer athletic scholarships, and any school joining would no longer be able to offer them.</p>
<p>I don’t really get the deal with the athletic scholarships. I’d guess most Ivy athletes get all or part of their expenses paid for via “need” aid. What difference does it make if your college expenses are paid for via an athletic scholarship or “need” aid?</p>
<p>Markie59,</p>
<p>You’ve dismissed someone who graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School as something less than a mental giant. That status is reserved for the 10% of the class with the highest grades. Obama achieved that while serving as president of the law review. That’s an exceptional achievement.</p>
<p>I’m curious as to what it takes in your view to be considered a “mental giant.” I disagree with John Roberts frequently, but I would feel silly making a dismissive comment about his intellect. (He was also magna cum laude at HLS, and managing editor of the law review.)</p>
<p>Not only that, but Obama’s daddy was not the head of the CIA or an alum of some Ivy League to help him get into a top school. Obama never benefited from the “old boys network” which was in full swing back in the 60s and 70s.</p>
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Alright Tarhole, it’s ok that you got rejected from Duke and go to the inferior state school 8 miles down the road. Most people think Penn is a state school. At least people know that Duke is an elite private school and no one asks you when Joe Pa is going to retire when you mention your alma mater.</p>
<p>After reading all of these posts, I’ve concluded that the Ivy League’s continuing charisma is quite tenuous. Kids, parents and counselors are getting more savvy about college selection, and are gradually realizing that, at least in certain of these Ivies, perhaps the Emperor wears no clothes, or if he does, there’s a growing number of other Emperors who have basically the same clothes. This thread has surfaced a great deal of doubt about the validity of the superior branding of the Ivy League. It’s just my guess, but thirty years from now I would not be surprised to see a much more heterogenous mix in terms of which universities are most prestigious. I am actually seeing it already among my sons’ classmates who are going through the application process this year. The critiques we are seeing on this thread mirror what these kids are saying among themselves. In their eyes, the Ivy magic is waning. Even among the most competitive among them, the top LACs, G’town, Duke, even USC are being regarded as offering an equal or better brand.</p>
<p>LDB, Schmaltz is not a Tar Heel…nor is he a Wolverine in case you were thinking it! hehe! </p>
<p>This said, UNC is not inferior to Duke. I agree that it is slightly weaker, but the gap is not significant. Comparing UNC to Duke would be like comparing Vanderbilt to Duke or WUSTL to Cornell. The gap is insignificant. Oh well, as Schmaltz said, there is a reason why Duke is not popular on CC.</p>
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Vanderbilt is more prestigious than UNC and WUSTL is just as good as Cornell. Maybe Cornell was considered a better school over 10 years ago when you did your Masters there but WUSTL has improved dramatically as a university in that span. These are both peer schools and lots of high school students choose between them and the choice is pretty split from what I’ve personally seen.</p>
<p>UNC isn’t even one of the top 5 schools in the South or even arguably one of the top 3 schools in the state of North Carolina. Davidson, Duke, Vanderbilt, Emory and Rice are all better while UVA and Wake Forest are arguably better.</p>
<p>I strongly believe Cornell has improved materially over the last 10 years. Successful fundraising has helped build many new facilities [including attractive dorms], hire distinguished faculty, and fund new academic centers. Applications for admissions have increased over 80% during the decade, while class size has remained unchanged.</p>
<p>No school would want to leave a major conference for the Ivy League, they would lose major cash.</p>
<p>I saw someone post that the Ivy League could “pickup” Northweastern, Duke and Georgetown…lol. Those schools would never do that, they would lose millions of dollars in revenue.</p>
<p>"they would lose millions of dollars in revenue. "</p>
<p>I think their proud retroactively Ivy alumni would increase donations, and also “generous” zillionaires who just happen to have a kid with a desire for an Ivy education would suddenly think kit’s a good time to make a big donation. And don’t forget the free publicity from Hollywood starlets who go Ivy or not at all. Also, it’s not like sports TV money would completely disappear. Not long ago, Penn and Princeton had significant success in March Madness. </p>
<p>Don’t you think Duke alumni would be happier spending a football weekend in Cambridge or Princeton, rubbing shoulders with the country’s super-elite and watching their alma mater win, rather than going to Blacksburg or Tallahassee, sitting between Larry the Cable Guy and Joe Dirt, and seeing their school get embarrassed?</p>
<p>^ I don’t think you understand how conferences work and how revenue is brought in.</p>
<p>Those proud Duke alumni’s you speak of may very well enjoy having their school in the Ivy League, but they certainly won’t enjoy having their very successful basketball program fall into complete irrelevance, which would happen if they jumped from the ACC.</p>
<p>Imagine Duke basketball not playing Maryland, UNC, Wake, Clemson, NC State, ect. every season? Eventually, interest in the program would completely fall. People aren’t going to travel to see Duke V. Princeton, or Duke V. Penn. </p>
<p>Those games certainly wouldn’t be played on television, they certainly wouldn’t be attractive to recruits, and they certainly wouldn’t be able to fuel a nationally successful athletic program…let alone sell out arenas.</p>
<p>Ditto football. Yeah, Duke is a doormat, but at least they get a nice paycheck for being one. That money would disappear when they jumped to a conference that gets zero television dollars, zero attendance, and zero national attention. </p>
<p>Also, why are you so rude to other people? Do you really need to insult others by calling them Joe Dirt to make yourself feel better? Personally, I’d rather sit next to Larry the Cable Guy than someone who you worship and consider uber elite.</p>
<p>I could see a school like MIT or University of Chicago joining, just for academic reasons, but not school that belongs to a major conference will down-grade into a complete irrelevant conference like the Ivy League.</p>
<p>You’d only do that if you want to completely sabotage your athletic programs.</p>
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<p>The difference can be substantial, as in $200,000 or more. The reason Stanford’s athletics are so far superior than Harvard’s is in part because Stanford’s athletic scholarships allow its athletes to attend for free or at a discount. There are many elite athletes in this country who come from upper-middle class or wealthy families who had the monetary resources to develop their childrens’ athletic talents. </p>
<p>Why would an athlete whose family makes $225K per year pay Harvard $50K per year to play a sport when that same athlete can play at Stanford for free or much less than $50K on an athletic scholarship? They wouldn’t. Even an athlete whose family makes $100K per year would still be paying something like $10K per year to Harvard, but nothing to Stanford on an athletic scholarship.</p>
<p>I can’t imagine any college with a successful, well-developed scholarship athletic program wanting to join the Ivy League.</p>
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<p>You know, I read this, and I think … where have some people been? The realization that there are great schools beyond the 8 Ivy Leagues isn’t some newfangled realization, well, maybe unless you’re brand new to this country and didn’t know any differently. Smart students have been going to the Dukes and Northwesterns and Johns Hopkins and Georgetowns and Amhersts and Oberlins and Grinnells and so forth FOREVER. I don’t know what planet people live on where it’s OMG-Ivy-or-Bust and they are JUST realizing that there are other good schools too, but it certainly isn’t planet earth. This is like a newsflash saying that there are other great musical groups outside the Beatles. It’s hardly an “epiphany” of any sort. I’m tired of this being touted as some kind of new news. It’s old, old news as far as I’m concerned.</p>
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<p>If you are upper middle class – which let’s not mince words, a LOT of athletes are, to be able to have afforded the training and the coaching and the travel-to-other-cities and so forth that it took to become elite in a sport – it can make a lot of difference. A not-uncommon scenario in my area is something like this: Upper middle class family, making $200,000. Kid is good at X sport but is also smart. Kid’s choices might be U of I at $25,000, Harvard at $50,000 … or Northwestern with an athletic scholarship. Why wouldn’t he take NU with an athletic scholarship? The $50,000 at Harvard is awfully hard to swallow, esp if the family has other kids coming up, and hard to justify … And then he’s getting a better deal than state flagship.</p>
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<p>Do you think “prestigious,” “elite” people talk this way, lesdiablesbleues? Do you think this brands you as “upper class” and impressive? </p>
<p>A) “What most people think” is irrelevant – only insecure people “worry” that the masses don’t know / recognize their school.<br>
B) Can’t wait til you get into the real world and mouth off about UNC (or whatever) being some “inferior state school” in front of a client who is paying your company beaucoup bucks and who went there. (No dog in UNC, just using them as an example.)</p>
<p>Good athletes who are also good academically have lots of options in schools that provide good educations with good athletics.</p>
<p>First, lets get off this elitist attitude. Education is what you make of it and a good education can be found in many places other than the Ivy League or other elite institutions. Plus, Ivy League schools don’t appeal to alot of students. Many kids want a more fun college atmoshpere that provides them with a better quality of life and social opportunities. In my peer group, no one even considered an Ivy League school. </p>
<p>Anyways, a very solid student athlete has opportunities to play in major conferences. </p>
<p>Notre Dame
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Clemson
Virginia
Purdue
Stanford
Duke
Wake Forest
PITT</p>
<p>Plus, there are lots of good public universities like PSU, OSO, Michigan, UNC, Texas, Washington, USC, Illinois, ect.</p>
<p>You also have alot of great schools that provide students a good atmosphere, close to home and fits there personality. Ole Miss, Miss State, Oklahoma, FSU, NC State, WVU, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Nebraska, Oregon.</p>