What would you do for your child?

Parent Cafe
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<p>
[quote]
It only shatters your dream because you're not willing to work hard enough to attain your dream. Working summers and during the school year, taking out loans, busting butt to get merit aid, doing Americorps or other programs that help pay for college -- all would help you afford your dream -- if your dream were important enough to you.

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<p>Despite the incredible unreasonableness of suggesting a kid be so perfect he could somehow work enough hours to accumulate 120,000 dollars over four years (assuming that as freshman we all have that foresight) while continuing to be doing well in school and involved in the extracurriculars that one needs to gain admission to an Ivy...um...:</p>

<p>I think you kinda missed the point :). I was making a point that some dreams should be shattered, because they're focused more on material things than what matters. A pretty campus isn't worth all that time and money. A Harvard education is not worth all that time and money. I think the hardest lesson my parents taught me was to have dreams with substance and go after those, not flighty, empty fantasties. Admittedly as a 9th grader I really didn't understand why everytime I mentioned wanting to go to a prestigious school, my parents would almost become angry with me. I thought that was what every parent wanted, and I didn't understand that most of my peers were working towards the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.</p>

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<p>We provide all $$ for S and soon younger S, including summer programs at other schools or abroad. All we ask is that they do their best and fully invest themselves in the "life of the mind" as well as the social life of the school. S has been very good about calling and having long discussions about classes, labs, new insights, etc. It makes it all worth it. (I am thinking about introducing small amounts of cat food into my diet in order to prepare for retirement.)</p>

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<p>We borrowed money for the first two kids, and will borrow again for DD2 despite the fact that paying the current loans is a hardship. DH's retirement is a faint and faraway dream.
I feel strongly that the message we gave -become what you desire, put total effort toward meeting those goals- we'll support you is important.
To me,I feel saddling a kid with loans that have ZERO effect on his life for 5 years teaches nothing about "the value of money". You learn work ethic for doing things that only get better as you work at it - sports, music, martial arts etc. I find the concept of withholding to make a point sort of pointless...if you need to teach the value of money now, you missed the boat a long time ago. I don't think that if there are two well off families and one's kids attend summer camp and one's work in Wal-mart that the second one has morally superior, harder working, "know the value of a dollar" kids.
For my kids, they know we sacrificed time and money both too see them succeed. They also know they did the same thing - gave up things they valued -sleeping late, sleepovers, hanging out, one sport or another, even scouts, to pursue a major goal. So far, so good. Both kids doing very well in the wide world.
Also, some folks may not know that the amount a student can borrow is limited by the federal govt., unless the parents do not qualify to borrow. You cannot "make' the child borrow extra, to my knowledge.
I know one kid whose family couldn't borrow so that child got the money in his name. Now has a 4 year degree from a BigName School, owes 150,000 in student loans and can only survive at all cause partner has a no loans, great job, and is sharing the costs. ugh.</p>

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<p>"To me,I feel saddling a kid with loans that have ZERO effect on his life for 5 years teaches nothing about "the value of money". "</p>

<p>I had loans in college, and they did have an effect on my life while I was in college: I realized that I would have to pay back those loans, and that knowledge did help me take college more seriously.</p>

<p>Having "some" college loans is a lot different than having $100,000+ in undergrad loans, which I think for virtually everyone is an unreasonable burden. However, being expected to pay up to $20,000 in loans for one's college is, to me, reasonable (though I know that others may disagree), and in some cases would help students take things more seriously.</p>

<p>" I don't think that if there are two well off families and one's kids attend summer camp and one's work in Wal-mart that the second one has morally superior, harder working, "know the value of a dollar" kids.
For my kids, they know we sacrificed time and money both too see them succeed. "</p>

<p>I agree that one can't make a judgment about which kid is "morally superior." At the same time, however, there are many people who don't realize what sacrifice means until they have to do it themselves. There are many young people who somehow think parents owe them, and who really don't appreciate it when parents sacrifice to send them to college. Those same young people, however, would be far more careful and appreciative if they were spending part of their own money to pay for their college education.</p>

<p>The young people's viewpoint may have little to do with how their parents raised them. There are some people who simply learn best from experience - their own. Everything else is too abstract for them to understand, including parents' making sacrifices to send them to colllege. It can be a lot difference when the loans or sweat equity also come from the students, not just their parents.</p>

<p>All families, however, differ, so this may not be the case with yours. When I taught college, I saw some young people who were very appreciative of what their families did for them. I saw others who didn't appreciate things until they flunked out of college due to partying and then learned what it was like to have to work to support themselves.</p>

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<p>Likewise, DD will be attending top LAC courtesy of the Bank of Mom - - and a reasosnably generous fin aid award. The fin aid pkg includes loans and a w/s job totalling just under $6k/yr: sufficent to make her a stake-holder w/o working her to death while in sch or crushing her w/ debt when she graduates. </p>

<p>As mkm 56 (post #19) said, it's my obligation to educate Ds to the extent my finances will allow and I am happy to foot the bill, even if it means delaying retirement a few years.</p>

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<p>I think this is a matter of personal values. A friend of mine recently admonished me for not encouraging my D, a very good student, from applying to the elite and the Ivy schools. She said, "Everybody takes out loans. The top schools do the job recruting on the campuses." Well, my position is don't take out loans if you don't need to. As other posters have noted, an academically qualified student could get a good education at a state u with merit $. Many of the state u's have produced Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, and Fulbright recipients. Besides, what retiree relishes the taste of cat food?</p>

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<p>I truly think this really varies from family to family for several reasons including personal value systems, one's own upbringing, financial situation, and even who their kids are, etc. I don't judge that some handle their kids' educations differently. I know what I want to do and it is not wrong or right, only that it is right for us. My parents paid for me to go to school and we want to provide for our kids to get to do the same. Even their grandparents want to help the grandkids to get an education. We feel a kid can get a good education anywhere, but never limited our kids to where they could attend. We support their interests and choices and we do not feel they take that for granted. I may have no money for retirement but education is something I just feel stronger about. Putting the kids first is in my background, so to speak. It doesn't mean I care about my kids more than the next person, but simply I care to do this for them. I think everyone does what it right for their situation and values. My kids also receive financial aid (all of which we will pay in terms of the loans) and merit aid. </p>

<p>The only thing that I have read here that doesn't fit my situation has to do with how some have mentioned that when a kid has to pay for part of their education, they will take it more seriously. I understand that that may be a factor for SOME kids. In my own situation, however, my kids take their educations very seriously and are deeply internally motivated and driven. I feel quite certain that they would not treat their education any differently if they were paying for it themselves. They strive to do their very best, get the best grades they can, and to reach for opportunities and create ones to challenge themselves further. They simply WANT to. I don't have to ask them to or even mention it. So, I don't need to make them pay in order to appreciate it or take it more seriously. But I realize that can be quite effective with another sort of kid. </p>

<p>I understand all the situations presented here and I don't think one is better than another. We each do what feels right and works for us.</p>

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<p>I just had it pointed out to me that cat food, in terms of cost per ounce, is relatively expensive. One can find human canned foods cheaper. Nice to know I can stop with the cat food, though it probably tastes better.</p>

<p>My kids value their education and at this point that is all I want them to think about. I don't even want to hear about "jobs" after graduation.</p>

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<p>" NorthstarMom -When I taught college, I saw some young people who were very appreciative of what their families did for them. I saw others who didn't appreciate things until they flunked out of college due to partying and then learned what it was like to have to work to support themselves."
First off, I guess I'm not being clear here-sorry, I assume most kids will take out the 20k in loans, since they go hand in hand with a FA package. I don't even know people in the world of cash payments!
Taking out loans if fine, it's why it's asked. I feel taking out loans is not the most effective way of teaching the value of money, or the joy of working toward a goal and getting there. I also think it is the working that makes the difference, not the salary. My DD2 never had a job in h.s. - way too much time put into music and karate and schoolwork. But she certainly worked all the time on her activities. We always talked about this being a equivalent effort, and she saw hs work, music practice etc as doing her part. She has two and three work-study jobs (at the same time) to get the full work-study hours awarded through undergrad, plus gigs on occasion. If she wants a spring outfit you can bet she saves all winter for it.
The flip side for me is that if you raise a child to work this hard, do you then turn around and say, well sorry we COULD afford HPY (or whichever of the other 4000 schools) and don't want to? This is not the same as making clear from the beginning what you think you can afford and letting the child try for any school knowing that they'll have to go to one within the family budget.</p>

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<p>Idad--I was just going to make the same observation about cat food prices!</p>

<p>Whole grains are cheap, and we're planning on raising our own vegetables. And maybe fish some, too. We'll eat fine.</p>

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<p>Wow a lot of posts in one day. Thanks.</p>

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<p>"The flip side for me is that if you raise a child to work this hard, do you then turn around and say, well sorry we COULD afford HPY (or whichever of the other 4000 schools) and don't want to? "</p>

<p>I can imagine doing this. I also can imagine being a kid in that situation. If I was willing to work that hard to get the grades and scores to qualify for HPY, and if I really wanted to go there, I'd find a way to do so. I'd work a job during the school year, work 60 hours a week during the summer, and spend my spare time applying for merit aid. If I was good enough to get a HPY acceptance, I certainly would have a good shot at getting lots of merit aid -- if I put the time and effort into obtaining it.</p>

<p>My father, a dentist, actually did not give me any money for college. I helped make up the difference, including by working during school breaks such as spring break, working up to 60 hours a week during the summer, etc. My mother also gave me money from her secretarial job, something I continue to appreciate. </p>

<p>When I went to grad school the second time, I used my savings, and worked jobs. (I also got married during that time, which helped, though that wasn't the reason that I got married). I also got an Armed Forces Fellowship, which helped pay for my education. In return, I eventually served in the military.</p>

<p>I really do believe that where there's a will, there's a way. When I taught college, I had some hard working students whose parents gave them absolutely nothing for college even though the parents could afford to give them money. In at last one situation, the student held no rancor against her parents because they had always told her that paying for college would be her and her sister's responsibility.</p>

<p>She worked her butt off -- academically (magna graduate) and on the job, working 30 hours a week during the school year plus doing volunteer work and spending lots of time on an EC related to her major. She graduated to one of the most fabulous entry level job offers I have ever seen in her field. A couple of years later, she bought a house in one of the country's most expensive housing market. She helps pay her mortage by having roommates. </p>

<p>Where there's a will, there's a way....</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I don't think that if there are two well off families and one's kids attend summer camp and one's work in Wal-mart that the second one has morally superior, harder working, "know the value of a dollar" kids.

[/quote]

I don't mean to be inciting an argument here, but just communicating what we chose to do (as the OP had asked). Much may depend on individual circumstances. We happen to live in a suburban area where many kids take a high standard of living very much for granted. H and I did not want our kids to make that assumption. We deliberately encouraged the kids to take part-time jobs in high school. My D worked in a local hardware store during high school summers and part-time during the school year and boy, did it open her eyes to a different world. She worked with a woman whose son had a full-time job while attending a local college. That was the only way they could make it happen. This same woman was thrilled at midlife to be able to finally get some cosmetic dental work done that she had needed for many years. My kids took orthodontia, etc. as a matter of course - all their friends had gone through the braces phase. </p>

<p>My D wrote one college essay on how her hardware store job gave her an education about real life that her classroom, etc. time would never have provided. It did not make her "morally superior" -- just more aware than she would otherwise have been.</p>

<p>Perhaps not all kids need or would benefit from this. Mine did though. I admit that I am of the school that believes that providing everything you possibly can for your kids may not be the best thing for them in the long run. But who knows? - we all just do what we think is best for our families. </p>

<p>Ironically, D became an economics major and now works for an economic consulting firm. </p>

<p>We're still working with S on some basic economic concepts - just recently he had to reimburse us many $ for the over-run on his cell phone minutes he used talking to his girlfriend. I had him calculate how many hours of his Saturday bakery job he had to work to cover that bill. (He still thinks it was worth it, though. ;) )</p>

<p>Anyhow, many paths ..... and peace to all! :)</p>

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<p>Just a thought.... none of us know the curve balls life will throw us and I wish the smug tone of this thread would morph into something kinder.</p>

<p>Those of us who think we've got a nice frugal retirement planned out.... if your spouse needs home based care even for a few hours a day (alzheimer's, MS, Parkinsons) well that plan is shot. Try getting your health insurance or the government to pay for someone to lift your spouse (or 95 year old father) in and out of the bathtub. Good luck finding home based care you can afford on a fixed income, especially if you live in a major metro area. Everyone thinks in terms of catastrophic medical needs or a nursing home....but as we all age and medical care for chronic conditions alleviates the need for hospital care for millions of elderly people-- you could end up indigent despite your frugality.</p>

<p>Ditto for those of us who have told our kids that we'll help pay their loans. Neighbor of mine is paying off kids college loans.... kid left high paying career since she gave birth to an infant with severe and chronic medical condition. Neighbor figured that after a few years with a high income kid would take over the loan.... life took an unexpected turn.</p>

<p>All of us could end up with a crappy retirement, living with our kids in a cheap apartment, or in debt up to our eyeballs until the day we die. So-- let's all acknowledge that whether our kids are working, taking out loans, taking advantage of merit awards or a low cost in-state option-- no plan is perfect or can encompass all of the various risks that life entails.</p>

<p>Me-- I wouldn't sacrifice my own retirement for my kid's college education. I can't imagine that burdening them with my care just when they're launching their own families would in any way compensate them for having had an idyllic four years, even if it propelled them into the world's most fascinating career. Too many other ways to get from Point A to Point B in our society. Many of you disagree and that's fine-- just my two cents. However, I'm willing to bet that those of you who aren't worried about dipping into retirement funds for tuition are those of you with well-do-do parents who can either contribute to the college expenses if asked, or are financially independent and don't need your help, or who will most likely leave you with a tidy nest egg once your working days are over.</p>

<p>Just a guess......</p>

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<p>As a number of posters have similarly described, we have devoted the lion's share of our income to our kids' education. (As a matter of fact, this morning we mailed the last tuition payment to S#1's pricey LAC! :)) We think that S#1 has received a superb education. However, he knows that as of 6/07, the spigot is being turned off. We have had that discussion for years. We paid for tuition, room & board, and he worked hard during the summers to save money for grad school expenses, buy himself a laptop, and pay for his own entertainment while in college. That was a good compromise for us. We have two more in high school, and have been saving for more than 25 years so that they can also attend the finest colleges/universities to which they are admitted and want to attend. This was a family value H and I were brought up with, and hope we have instilled this in them. We, too, hope they will pay it forward. Retirement may have to wait a bit, (yes, we have saved for that, too) but we're hoping we've made the best decision for our family. That's all we can do.</p>

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<p>Our kids will be helping to finance their education. It's something we've talked about with them for years -- they can go wherever they want, but we are not footing the entire bill. My spouse and I both put ourselves through school with no help from parents, and personally, I would not wish that on anyone. It was hard enough 25 years ago at a state school. We were in our late thirties before DH's grad school was paid off (student loans + day care expenses = Long, Long Slog).</p>

<p>On the other hand, as several posters have mentioned, I also believe it's important for my kids to have some stake in their future. There will be loans on their part, hopefully some merit money. We may qualify for a little need-based aid, but not much. That will change when DS2 goes to college two years after DS1, but our EFC will still resemble the price of a VERY nice vehicle. (And by that point, our vehicles will have more vintage than many fine wines!) The kids will also be working to earn money for their books and expenses, though I don't want them working so much during the school year that it adversely affects their grades. BTDT.</p>

<p>DS1 (a junior) has been focusing on interships which may or may not pay, but offer some excellent opportunities. He spent $32 in six weeks at a program this summer -- he's cheap to feed/clothe/amuse. His luxuries in life are nerd t-shirts and college texts. DS2 (a freshman) is more interested in getting a job (vs. internship) for spending money and college savings, as his "hobbies" are more expensive than his brother's.</p>

<p>We have always been conservative in our spending, which proved fortunate when I was diagnosed with a serious illness 4.5 years ago. The cost of my medication is as much as the schools our children would love to attend; for now, our insurance covers most of it, but as the copay increases every year and more drugs get put on the "special lists," we expect our out-of-pocket to increase. While my disease is considered under decent control, it is not gone, the side effects are lousy, I don't qualify for SS, and I do not have consistent enough energy levels to commit to an employer. </p>

<p>I don't expect the FinAid offices to pity us -- I don't know that we will even raise the issue with them except to provide our $$ of medical expenses on the PROFILE. As a family, we and the kids can make college happen, though there will be a significant cost to all of us -- but one that we have all bought into and are willing to pay. On the other hand, from our perspective, we have no family support to fall back on, so whatever limited resources we have to deal with my illness, college, retirement, etc. are those that DH and I have planned and managed for the past umpty-ump years. Our kids know this and we are fortunate they are very low-maintenance. (Nonetheless, thank goodness we bought our house in 1998. Home equity!)</p>

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<p>"Where there's a will, there's a way...."
yes!, and some kids (my S) would take it totally for granted if I handed him everything he wanted. From a cell phone with unlimited everything to a free college education. I plan on contributing to his education, but I've told him that I am not taking loans out in MY name to do it. I've encouraged him to apply for several scholarships that he actually has a decent chance of getting. If he couldn't even be bothered enough to APPLY for the scholarship, that tells me ALOT about him. Our worst case scenario is he goes to State school for 16K. That won't break my bank and he'll have low loan amounts.</p>

<p>He knows about money (trust me, I've told him too much), but he still fritters it away and is wasteful. Not my idea of someone I want to share debt with.</p>

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<p>"The flip side for me is that if you raise a child to work this hard, do you then turn around and say, well sorry we COULD afford HPY (or whichever of the other 4000 schools) and don't want to? "</p>

<p>Well we did not raise our DS to be an uber achiever, rather encoraging him to work at his own pace, modestly challenge himself, engage in activities he enjoyed(damned the high stakes resume) and thoroughly enjoy his high school days making music and hanging out with friends as a primary "EC".</p>

<p>The result? We do not yet know how far he will excel academically now that he is in college. The only indication we have is that he is a very happy young adult who is enthusiastic with college life and is performing far beyond our expectations.</p>

<p>No, he was not a viable HYP candidate as a hs senior and perhaps that is both his and their loss. But it seems that the his innate abilities are continuing to be nurtured and that the future is quite bright for him if he continues to put in the effort to succeed.</p>

<p>And I concede that he does not have the natural intelligence of students like cur's daughter, marite's son or interesteddad's child. But he is happy and willing to work! Both characteristics which should lead to a happy and successful life. Hey, maybe even a life of the mind.</p>

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<p>I don't quite understand one of the themes of this thread -- the idea that the student must make a personal financial commitment in order to be motivated to work hard at an expensive college. This seems to be the rationale for why some parents who could afford to pay the entire tab themselves require the student to make a substantial contribution.</p>

<p>It seems to me that the kids at the top private colleges tend to be ambitious students anyway -- the kind who would work hard no matter what. One of my kids is this type, and she has been accepted ED to a private university (one step down from HPY) that's going to cost a bundle of money (which we happen to have because my husband and I inherited it when our parents died). Of course she's going to do the work. That's how she's made, and it's what got her into that college in the first place. She doesn't need to be told to study and earn good grades; it's hardwired into her soul. Adding a not-truly-necessary financial burden to the mix wouldn't have motivated her further. Instead, I think it would have restricted her. For example, she might have felt a need to choose a major that would allow her to get a good job right after getting a bachelor's degree so that she could pay off her debts, rather than feeling free to also consider career fields that require graduate study. She also might have felt the need not to even consider the private college, but to instead go to our less prestigious and less rigorous state university (which is not only cheaper but would probably have offered her a merit scholarship). I see no point in doing this to her. What would it accomplish?</p>

<p>Of course, the situation is entirely different for families for whom the cost of college is a major concern. My comments apply only to families who happen to have enough money so that paying for a child's college is not a huge burden.</p>

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<p>My parents paid for their three kids' private educations because it was their top priority. More important than anything else. H and I feel the same way. We're salting away now for both of ours, and for retirement as well. Fortunately we're in a financial position to do that. We're surrounded by people in equal financial circumstances who take a different route. Everybody's different. There was a tacit understanding with my parents that we would take our studies seriously and we did. We'll "extend" that understanding to our kids as well. If they goof off they'll need to take some time off to mature and get it right. The tuition's too high to waste.</p>