<p>Chicago politics has a political machine different than California. May be a good experience in itself. Barck O'Bama is a rising star.</p>
<p>It was the University of Chicago Law School that was particularly conservative - they started the whole law and economics thing.</p>
<p>mstee:</p>
<p>You raise an interesting point....schedule flexibility at Berkeley vs. the Core at UofC.</p>
<p>Let me say right off that faced with similar finances, we went with Chicago, and that I know the $100,000 issue is a tough one. </p>
<p>I guess I would ask: how sure is he about the political career? But my suggestion might be different from most. Taking $$ out of the equation, I'd go with Chicago, and then law school at Boalt. I do think the Chicago core offers a unique and rigorous exposure to ideas and thought processes that most college kids have only a nodding acquaintance with at best. If he's going to spend his life in the rough-and-tumble of the politcal world, there's a lot to be said for taking the time to step back and immerse himself in the great questions and texts. He won't have another shot at it, and he'll be beautifully prepared for law school or whatever. Of course, he'll also be broke, which is a situation that will definitely be a problem for some of us.</p>
<p>My only other comment has to do with finishing more quickly at Berkeley. I have another one at state U who started with a year's worth of credit from AP and college courses taken in high school. Not a great idea in my book, except for the exceptionally mature (still looking for those around this house). He skipped a lot of the preliminary courses that might have enabled him to ease into college and put more deliberation into his program. As it is, he probably won't graduate in less than 4 years because he is so not ready for that and we are encouraging him to stay in school and take advantage of more of what it has to offer.</p>
<p>And btw, I'm pretty liberal and so, as far as I can tell, is U of C (as a gross generalization).</p>
<p>mstee, "At what point would any of you, if you are a little tipped in the Chicago direction, would it be worth it to choose Chicago? 5k, 25k, 50k, 100k?"</p>
<p>For us, if S had received one of the 100 1/3 tuition merit awards ($9,500x 4 = $38,000) from Chicago, that probably would have tipped it enough not to have to be asking this question. Unfortunately, he didn't get one. Then we started really looking at the finances of the two match schools, and remembered his CC classes (which he took for enjoyment not to get a head start at a UC, so we had sort of forgotten about them). They could save him at least a year of frosh/soph classes... that's when the what-if scenarios got interesting. </p>
<p>If money were not a factor, like if he had a giant trust fund that would pay for undergrad and grad both, I'd have to side with Chicago. If he didn't want to go to grad school but straight into the work force, I side with Chicago and just take on the debt (or split it, like I said). But with his particular combination of factors and aspirations, and our limitations on $$ -- we have a high school freshman, too -- Cal is looking a little more appealing. The reality of spending this kind of money and going into debt is hitting pretty hard right now. </p>
<p>I guess I would have to add, if I had a kid who was in absolute love with Chicago or totally hated Cal, then that would weigh heavily on our minds, too. S is pretty easy to please in terms of this particular choice; he really can see himself at either place.</p>
<p>mmboys07, that's another vote... Cal 11, Chicago 2.</p>
<p>I appreciate everyone's input so far and will be showing it to S and to my H.</p>
<p>Bucca, yes, S is a huge Obama fan and being in the mid-west for the next election cycle, is a big plus in his eyes. </p>
<p>geena: "I do think the Chicago core offers a unique and rigorous exposure to ideas and thought processes that most college kids have only a nodding acquaintance with at best." </p>
<p>This is the crux of the issue in my mind. How can you quantify the experience he would have in Chicago's unique program? What is it worth? $100,000? I just don't know and was SO hoping for merit aid in order not to have to make this decision.</p>
<p>I know plenty of kids (out-of-state, of course) who would give their eye-teeth for a chance to attend UCB. My vote is for UCB for all the reasons covered so far.... also, ( as a negative to Chicago) unless your son has a burning desire for the core curriculum , it can be somewhat restrictive.</p>
<p>I vote for UChicago. Your son may never go to law school. If he does, though, the no-brainer is Boalt--the law school at Berkeley. There's less of a difference in the quality of the education he will get at Boalt and any of the dozen or so law schools currently ranked above it by US News(assuming he gets into one) than there is between Cal undergrad and UChicago undergrad. By quality, I don't mean prestige or rankings. I mean that the two experiences are qualitatively different in terms of the core, class size, etc.--while there isn't all that much difference between the experience he would have at Boalt and one of the few law schools with a higher ranking. (UCLA is currently ranked below Boalt, but tied as the 15th best law school in the nation. )</p>
<p>Moreover, from what I've seen, going to law school in the state where you intend to run for office is more important than going to undergrad there. It's not going to hurt anyone running for office in California to have a UChicago undergrad degree and a Boalt Law degree. Your son could stay in Cali for college for political reasons and then decide that it makes NO sense to go to UPenn or Northwestern for law school anyway. Realistically, if people on this board don't think UChicago is worth more money that UCal-B for undergrad, nobody with that view is going to tell you it makes sense to pay more money for a law school other than Boalt except PERHAPS if you get into Harvard, Yale or Stanford...and even then a LOT of people would say no, especially if you want to run for office. </p>
<p>There isn't one right answer to this question--it obviously depends upon the kid. But--and I'm not making this as a comment about the OP's poster's son, but about any person in this position--it's just plain silly to say about any 17 or 18 year old who is a high school senior, well, we should scrimp on $$$ now because we shall need a lot of $ to pay for Yale, Harvard, or Stanford Law School. That's essentially, IMO, the argument being made here.</p>
<p>Remember he's got to get through college first. Based SOLELY on the information in the OP's posts, it sounds as if the young man might need a bit more "hand-holding" than Cal-B offers. If he doesn't, that's a different story...but in my opinion, you shouldn't be assuming he'll go to law school and if he does go, look at in-state, not out of state costs for it.</p>
<p>anxiousmom,
burning desire for the core... good point... I think for my son, he has a burning desire to sharpen his intellect, to clash minds, if you will, with great thinkers and great ideas. Thinking is his sport. He likes the idea of the core because of the Socratic method and the primary sources, but I can't call him a pure academic and he is not in LOVE with the idea of the core. He has extremely broad interests and reads whatever appeals to him at the moment, whether it be a Great Book or a political web blog, but he is not highly disciplined. In other words, I couldn't see him becoming a researcher or a professor or someone with a more narrow focus. He has a voracious appetite for all kinds of ideas and is very, very bright. I like Chicago because I think it would discipline his thinking techniques, give him an excellent foundation and require a lot out of him. I worry that Berkeley would be like too much dessert and not enough substance. He probably likes that idea though because it gives him the freedom to pick and choose based on his unique interests at the moment... I've often wished I'd been more disciplined in college, and had a more rigorous undergrad education, so perhaps I'm projecting this onto what I hope his experience will be.</p>
<p>While I'm happy not to be one for whom college were the best years of my life, they were certainly some of the most important ones in terms of growth. They are highly influential years and years to savor. </p>
<p>My oldest chose a UC, a close to home and economical school. He regrets it and I wish I'd have realized that his growth would be helped by leaving his comfort zone. When he sees the adventure his sister is about to embark on across the Country, I can see the regret. I thought grad school would suffice, but let's face it, grad school is not the same as college. It's a nose to the grindstone time and I don't think it can replace the full undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>So to me, it all depends on how critical the $100K is to you. If the kitty is such that it's spending it now or leaving it to him later (or the loans won't kill you or him), I'd vote to spend it now and let him enjoy a full 4 years on a campus with small classes and none of the obnoxious red tape UC students face on a daily basis. It just keeps getting worse. The whole picture of a kid approaching a UC as a three year exercise just says to me that he will not have fond college memories and a real college experience.</p>
<p>I know some view it as limiting, but I don't see the core at Chicago as limiting, but rather expanding one's horizons. Without it, I probably would not have taken any science in college, probably not humanities (Greek Thought and Lit) either, or the social science sequence where I had to read all kinds of stuff I doubt I would have ever read (Marx, Adam Smith, Milton Friedman). The Greek Thought and Lit course really changed the way I look at things. I know that sounds cliche, but that sequence affected me more than any other college courses I have ever taken. One of my husband's absolute favorite classes at Chicago was a bio course in immunology, which he never would have taken except thatt he had to fulfill that core biology requirement!</p>
<p>I have heard that the UC's limit the number of credits one can take in order to graduate, which is why I say to check on that and be cautious of how many credits you want appearing on the transcript. To me, getting so many credits that you have junior standing and are expected to only take courses in your major and get out of there in a couple of years is not the college experience I would want for myself or my kids. But then again, perhaps it is not quite that bad. And then again, some folks prefer it that way!</p>
<p>Mini--I totally agree with you about Grinnell. My S, stubborn lad, does not. When my H visited Grinnell he was so impressed he said if he could do it over he would go there himself! It is not going to cost $100k more for him to go to Chicago, thank goodness, but will be probably $50-$60k more. He is expected to take about half of that amount in loans in his own name (unless we get some unexpected windfall).</p>
<p>Then next year we start the process of putting together the list for child #3. She says she wants to go somewhere cheap. I say, fine with me!</p>
<p>Mom---<oh wait,="" we="" do="" have="" a="" rescued="" st.="" bernard="" with="" recently="" repaired="" acl="" injury...="" i'm="" assuming="" he="" appreciated="" in="" value="" by="" the="" cost="" of="" his="" $3,500="" emergency="" operation...="" right?="" could="" cash="" him="" for="" books="" and="" personal="" expenses="" s?=""></oh></p>
<p>ROFLMAO!!!! I thought dealing with my cat's broken leg was a HUGE deal! NO ONE would take him in exchange for ANYTHING! he's gorgeous, but WAY to chatty! =^..^=</p>
<p>Berkeley and save the money to spend for law school.</p>
<p>Well if the vote is going to be accurate I'd better toss in for U of Chicago (personally.) Especially if you or you son really feels it will be the educationally superior experience or where fit is really best. </p>
<p>The notion of going into politics can disappear in the blink of an eye. He could fall in love with so many other dreams once exposed to a real breadth of material in college.</p>
<p>I think it is important to note that though my D does not qualify for aid, we are not wealthy. (She is going to a full freight LAC not a UC where she'd have many credits as well.) It does make a material difference to MOST people who pay full freight, even those who do not need to take out loans to do so. (We probably will but not till soph or jr year.) Theoretically, if I had set aside $160K free and clear, my D would still have to choose whether she'd rather spend this bundle on college or have it for later. So for all but the uber-wealthy, these questions are relevant and important.</p>
<p>Obviously, crippling post college debt would be a factor, but $40K of debt can certainly be retired relatively swiftly on an CA attorney's salary. (Might feel different if his dream was to teach HS.) Furthermore, spending some of the saved $ will open FA possibilities to your second son.</p>
<p>My Dad did pay for my college-- he handed me a stock fund (in my name) when I was a freshman, and I sold a bit each year to pay the college bills. </p>
<p>Had I gone to a UC, I'd probably have a major nest egg from those stocks (some of them have increased 5 or 10x since then). Do I regret spending it? Heck no. My undergrad years were formative, wonderful, nurturing-- a perfect match for me. I have had several very good careers in the last 25 years and have not hurt for $. </p>
<p>Not only that, my "follow your heart" undergrad years primed the pump for a "follow your heart" path through adult life that has been very rewarding for me. So not everything in life can be quantified on a balance sheet. </p>
<p>I still stand by my original advice to let your son choose, <strong>if</strong> you are willing to support either school-- but for the sake of the vote, this is where I'd come down.</p>
<p>OK. You know my daughter goes to Chicago and is very happy there -- even loves the core. But our situation is different, because we didn't have the financial issue to surmount. If you can pay for UChicago without agony and feel good about it, you know it is a great school. But Berkeley is also one of the world's most respected institutions (more well-known in most circles than Chicago). If we had been faced with your decision last year, we would have encouraged our daughter to go to Berkeley. Wait, let me rephrase that. We would have said, "We can't swing Chicago, so you will go to Berkeley or one of the other schools that accepted you and that we can afford." But that's just us.</p>
<p>SBmom, you really hit on something with your "follow your heart" thinking. One thing I've realized is that successful people think big and take (prudent) risks. I don't want to teach my kids to always play it the safest way.</p>
<p>I vote Berkeley. Place that extra $ into grad school. What better place to find out if he really wants to be a politician - after all his district or state will be filled with thousands and possible millions of strangers, and the best politicians learn to stand out in a crowd. Along with a well-known school the life experiences he will get for his future would surely be beneficial, many of which he couldn't really experience at Chicago because it is so intimate. We are in a similar boat, weighing Chicago, Middlebury, American and Amherst.</p>
<p>SBMom and I were posting at the same time and she makes a valid point -- if he becomes a California attorney, the UChicago debt may be easily paid. My D wants to be a college professor, so she's looking at many years of school and a not-so-amazing salary down the road.</p>
<p>Hi..I'm a fairly infrequent poster as well, but I was just reading this thread, and I'm with Northstarmom and the other poster(s) who mentioned going to Berkeley, most especially if interested in going into future politics. Definitely. Also, I'm always intrigued on these boards by the CA folks who seem to put down Berkeley. Can someone explain that? From an East Coast perspective, at least, Berkeley is really highly regarded. I'm also interested in a poster's comment regarding the conservative nature (Republican?) of Chicago. Were you kidding, or is this true? My daugher got into UChicago, though hasn't yet visited. It look(ed) perfect for her, until we got the financial aid package. Ha!</p>