What would you do? Please vote!

Parents Forum
81

<p>momof2inca,</p>

<p>These are really two wonderful choices! I don't know enough detail about either one to give a very educated opinion, but I would tend to take into account the level of desire you son has to attend each one. If he were torn even at all, I'd be tempted to go with Berkeley, but having a son myself who's harbored a long-standing dream, I'd find it difficult to not try to find some way to make it happen if there were a clear preference (for valid reasons) for UChicago. This is a tough decision, and I wish you and your son good luck in making the finest choice possible for him. Keep us posted! ~berurah</p>

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<p>Oh, the public interest law aspect changes my vote. LIke others here, I know someone who has had many regrets over having come out of Harvard Law with such substantial debt that the corporate route was the only one reasonable available to him when what he really wanted was to go into public interest work. His alternative school was not nearly as attractive an option as UC Berkeley though.</p>

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<p>Greybeard: My point wasn't that voters "are afraid to vote" for someone who went to school out of state..it was more, that there are real voters out there who feel (or truly believe) that someone from their state who went on-- right out of high school-- to an Ivy or Ivy-like institution, probably can't connect or relate to them on many levels. But more importantly, Berkeley is a fine school, and though I can understand the dilemma, I'd go with Berkeley as well--most especially if a kid is not going to end the education at the undergraduate level. Also--on a somewhat related note--I am disgusted by these schools that claim they give out merit money--even with NMF money--and then that amount they give for this merit actually depends on your financial situation. In my opinion, then, this is not truly merit money. It is, once again, need-based. I'm all for the schools that say they award merit money--based solely on merit--and they really do. Chicago (as we discovered) is not one of them.</p>

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<p>Calmom, here is an excerpt from the University of Chicago Law School's website:</p>

<p>Budgeting for the Law School: Tuition for the Law School for 2005-2006 is $35,560 for the nine-month academic year. Additional student fees typically average $500 per academic year. Expenses for housing and incidentals will vary depending upon individual taste and circumstance. During the 2005-2006 academic year, the average budget, including tuition, for a single student is $59,530.</p>

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<p>Tough choices. UCBerkeley is a wonderful school and so is Chicago. If money is a problem (and $40,000 is nothing to sneeze at, and then there is law school as well), I would vote for UC Berkeley because:
1) It is instate, less tuition.
2) Great school.
3) Your son might not take 4-5 years since he has a lot of advanced placement credits.</p>

86

<p>Momof2inca states, "Why I have reservations: The place is huge, impersonal and facing budget problems. He will be a number. He comes from a small high school where he is well-known by everyone; not sure he would be good at making contacts or getting known by profs (future recs?) The undergrad curriculum can't be as rigorous. (Will he learn how to really think?) He would be 20 years old when he graduated. (Would he be ready/mature enough for grad school?) Would he get into as good of a grad/law school from Berkeley?"</p>

<p>Where to begin! It is interesting that you freely shared your thoughts but none of your son's, who will be the student at one of these great universities. It is his opiniopns which really count here.</p>

<p>Regarding UC-Berkeley's size, folks need to consider several things and being a graduate of Ohio State I speak with some authority. Many of our state flagship universities are indeed hugh. However the number of degree programs they offer are also hugh. My graduating class at OSU was about 30 students and I can assure you that none of us were numbers to our faculty. They knew all of us, we socialized together some and some became great mentors. The references were easy to come by. PoliSci is a popular major and it is likely to be one of the larger departments at Berkeley and would be likewise at Chicago. If this were an issue, perhaps he could choose a major like international relations with a minor in polisci.</p>

<p>Regarding the budget issues, universities are like hugh oil tankers in that it take a long time for impacts to be manifested due to institutional changes. And because state support has been dwindling for many years, it is doubtful that Berkeley's ed offerings will noticably change during the 3 or 4 years your son is attending.</p>

<p>Why do you believe that Berkeley will offer an education inferior to Chicago?? Again I can only speak authoritatively from my experience. I went from Ohio State to Cornell and I soon determined that I was every bit as well prepared to tackle graduate studies as my peers and perhaps better than most in fluid mechanics, hydraulics, technical writing, statistics and programming. By carefully choosing his courses, I can almost guarantee that he will not suffer academically at UC-Berkeley. He will be among many students who are his equal or better.</p>

<p>His maturity at 20 is something I cannot comment upon. But if that is an issue he could always enter the workforce for a few years and perhaps gain some useful experience which prospective law schools would view positively. </p>

<p>Is UChicago worth the extra $110k. Based on the considerations listed in your post, definitely not. However your son may have reasons which would make a great case for that investment.</p>

87

<p>"Work with migrant laborers. Volunteer at a neighborhood legal clinic. Do AIDS advocacy work. (or, if of the other ilk, work to abolish all taxes!) Get a one-term internship with the legislature. Work for the local Nature Conservancy. The possibilities are endless when you don't have to worry (much) about money. Yes, you'll have to back him in these adventures, but that's what the money is for, right? Allow him to get a REAL education."</p>

<p>Mini, would you be my guidance counselor if I could go back to school at the age of 50 plus and do it all over again?</p>

<p>Didn't need it, but your post makes me feel even better about DS going to UT Austin Liberal Arts Honors instead of Grinnell which surprisingly gave only token merit aid.</p>

<p>Go Berkeley!!!</p>

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<p>mom:</p>

<p>one thing to recognize is that his chances of being accepted to Boalt decline dramatically if he has a Berkeley degree....nearly all of the grad schools at Berkeley (rightfully) believe that they are national in scope, so their selectivity is based in part on geographic diversity -- OOS tuition helps as well. There has always been a built-in bias at the UC's to recommend that their grads go elsewhere for further education ("elsewhere" includes other UC campuses). But, good grades from B and LSAT scores would likely get S into Hastings, or, even UCLA with great recs. Just don't plan on S staying on Telegraph Ave for 7 years. Otherwise, if his 'dream' law school is Boalt, then I might change my vote.</p>

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<p>""Work with migrant laborers. Volunteer at a neighborhood legal clinic. Do AIDS advocacy work. (or, if of the other ilk, work to abolish all taxes!) Get a one-term internship with the legislature. Work for the local Nature Conservancy. The possibilities are endless when you don't have to worry (much) about money. Yes, you'll have to back him in these adventures, but that's what the money is for, right? Allow him to get a REAL education."</p>

<p>Mini, would you be my guidance counselor if I could go back to school at the age of 50 plus and do it all over again?"</p>

<p>Well, my kids do these kinds of things - in high school! Actually, instead of high school. ;)</p>

<p>Speaking of same, a shameless plug for those of you in the Philadelphia area. Daughter #2, with us in tow, is flying to Philadelphia to give a benefit recital: (info below)</p>

<p>You are Invited to Attend a….</p>

<p>Benefit Piano Recital by
Meera Shanti</p>

<p>Music of Debussy, Lecuona, Rachmaninoff,
Chopin, & Granados</p>

<p>Saturday, April 23, 7:30 P.M.
Old First Reformed Church
4th and Race Streets, Philadelphia</p>

<p>Meera Shanti, 14, is an extremely gifted pianist, and has been playing the piano since she was 2. She is a homeschooler, and a junior member of Olympia Friends Meeting in Washington State. Besides the piano, she also studies vocal music with Seattle jazz vocalist Greta Metassa. </p>

<p>Funds will benefit the Healing and Rebuilding Our Communities Program of the African Great Lakes Initiative (AGLI), working to heal the rifts caused by war and civil strife in Rwanda and Burundi. This project of Friends Peace Teams has been working to bring some relief to the conflict between the Hutu and Tutsi people which has left hundreds of thousands dead, and an even greater number in camps for refugees and displaced persons. AGLI has developed a community trauma-healing and reconciliation process to facilitate dialogue and peacebuilding. Adrien Niyangabo of AGLI in Burundi will speak about the project at the program’s intermission.</p>

<p>Contributions will be accepted at the door.</p>

<p>Sponsored by Friends Peace Teams</p>

<p>For More Information, Call: (215) 438-0917; E-Mail: <a href="mailto:pdy23@drexel.edu">pdy23@drexel.edu</a></p>

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<p>Mini, my son and I are coming. Hope to see you backstage later...and glad it is a Saturday.</p>

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<p>Momof2inca,</p>

<p>Just curious, what are the two reach schools?</p>

92

<p>Hi cajundad, UNC is done with awarding their merit $$. Hope you had some good news?</p>

93

<p>After nearly 24 hours of CC voting, the tally is not even close. Cal is the out and out favorite, under the context I've presented. (And I hope that nobody will assume that under a different scenario -- unlimited funds, a different career path, a different major, a different kid -- the results would be so lopsided. There is a reason why we, as a family, are torn about these two schools and what they would offer S. </p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for their comments; it has given this Inca mom a lot to chew on yesterday and today (and don't think I didn't dream about this stuff last night as well!).</p>

<p>Specific replies to folks below.</p>

94

<p>SV2 - "Intellectual fruits probably hang from the trees at both places although the environment of the orchard and the efforts the student must make to partake may differ. "</p>

<p>This is a very wise statement, thank you. I believe you are correct and will highlight this particular comment for him when I print out this thread. </p>

<p>Topcat: "As for going to an in-state school so your son can enter politics in his home state -- that sounds silly really." </p>

<p>Funny, you should mention this. I told my H and my mom about the earlier comments that voters would connect better with a guy who came out of their flagship university and both felt that this would be true. It was sort of an ah-ha moment for the three of us. But when I told S yesterday afternoon about these comments, he at first scoffed at the idea and, when I tried to explain further why they might make sense, he got mad! He said he would never choose a college based on the need "to placate future voters." He said he would choose his college because it was "the right thing to do" not for any perception it might give him later on. It was the first college "spat" we've had in 18 months. So, I'm guessing he will agree with you (though I still find the idea interesting and wonder if at a local political level, not governor, but say, assembly, it would hold true.)</p>

<p>Choco -- I counted your D's vote for Cal in the tally. You know how much I've enjoyed chatting with you about Chicago, and I'm sorry for both of us that the merit aid did not come through.</p>

<p>Calmom - "I would guess that there are grants available for law students committed to public interest work, but I don't know specifics."</p>

<p>Well, if there aren't, there sure should be. How are we going to protect the public interest if the smart, middle-class kids will all have to become corporate lawyers to pay for law school debts. How can children of teachers and civil servants even go to law school?</p>

<p>Tabbyzmom -- congrats on a decision made! I'm wishing all the best for your S at UF! I forget where you are located? Will he be moving out of state or far away for college?</p>

<p>Greybeard -- "I'd also wager that fewer than one percent of the high school seniors who are interested in politics ultimately run for office at any level." </p>

<p>Good point! I'm sure that you are right in your estimate, and that perhaps it's even a bit too high. Another reason not to overemphasize the difference of in-state, out-of-state undergrad, I guess.</p>

<p>Berurah -- "If he were torn even at all, I'd be tempted to go with Berkeley, but having a son myself who's harbored a long-standing dream, I'd find it difficult to not try to find some way to make it happen if there were a clear preference (for valid reasons) for UChicago."</p>

<p>You know, I think he is really fine with going to Cal. He's an easy-going kid and while the idea of going out of state sounded wonderful to him, the idea of going in-state seems to appeal just as much. I think it would be a different story if he were choosing between his safety school and Chicago or his safety school and Cal. He has not carried a dream of a certain school the way your S has, and frankly, he is a LOT less concerned with fit than I am.</p>

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<p>geena -- "Oh the public interest... changes my vote." Yeah, that's why I thought I'd better add more context to this discussion. If he was going into some lucrative field, the loans would not be as big of a deal.</p>

<p>jack -- "In my opinion, then, this is not truly merit money. It is, once again, need-based. I'm all for the schools that say they award merit money--based solely on merit--and they really do. Chicago (as we discovered) is not one of them."</p>

<p>Can you elaborate on your Chicago experience?</p>

<p>marite: $60,000 for a year at Chicago Law? I almost choked... And multiply that by 3 years, that's $180,000 for a law education!! I had no idea it was that much. </p>

<p>achat-- thanks for your vote. I've really respected your position on CC issues in the past.</p>

<p>Originaloog -- "However the number of degree programs they offer are also hugh. My graduating class at OSU was about 30 students and I can assure you that none of us were numbers to our faculty. They knew all of us, we socialized together some and some became great mentors. The references were easy to come by."</p>

<p>This is good news to me. I went to a UC in the 80s, and I think I'm having a hard time picturing the upper level courses being small because I ended up studying in France for my senior year and missed out on most of the senior level courses back home (though my classes at the Universite de Poitiers were very small). So, this is good news.</p>

<p>You also said "Regarding the budget issues, universities are like hugh oil tankers in that it take a long time for impacts to be manifested due to institutional changes."</p>

<p>Yes, I agree with this, too. But the trend is certainly not good. </p>

<p>blue -- "one thing to recognize is that his chances of being accepted to Boalt decline dramatically if he has a Berkeley degree...."</p>

<p>S is not set on Boalt at all. In fact, he would probably really want to go out of state for grad school if he stayed in state for undergrad. </p>

<p>min -- your 14-year-old sounds incredible. Wish I could attend! Let me know if she ever makes it down the coast to So. Cal...</p>

<p>Cajundad -- the two reach schools were Harvard and Yale. He was waitlisted at both :(</p>

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<p>I'm coming down to So. Cal for a speaking tour May 10-15, but without D2 (though my purpose for the tour is to raise enough money to afford to send her to Mannes Summer Piano program this summer.)</p>

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<p>momof2inca: I was interested in the comment by your son, that he would not choose a school "to placate future voters." Again, that's not the point. Picture this scenario: He's running for local politics; better yet, he's not running for any office, but he's a lobbyist trying to get more money for the folks in rural counties for their schools, their agriculture crops--whatever. They're trying to talk with him about their economic hard times, wanting to send their own son to college (perhaps 1st generation college). Much easier to 'connect' and empathize when the lobbyist himself has gone to the state public university--also one that helped pay his way. Now that same kid, as an adult, wants to give back to the state and the community at large--the one that gave him so much. Just a thought. </p>

<p>In answer to your question about merit aid elaboration. Nothing to elaborate, really. We prefer the schools that say that they award merit aid that is truly merit-based (need is not taken into consideration). I find it disingenuous that a school (like Chicago, for instance) says they give out merit aid, but then your financial means (ability to pay) is also brought into the equation. Again, that's not merit aid; that's need-based aid. They certainly do this with their NMF award, and I would guess this is true for their other "merit" based awards as well. Why not just call it what it is? Need-based aid. I find the practice particularly revolting in terms of NMF. That really is and should be considered nothing more than a merit-based award.</p>

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<p>jack: Thanks for your illustration re: the lobbyist. I get it, and I think it's true. More folks will be able to relate to a person in politics with a state school education than to someone with an out-of-state private school. It's a credibility factor that is perhaps unique to politics, especially on the local person-to-person level. If we were talking medicine or engineering, it wouldn't be a factor. Not sure if S is able to see this, but that doesn't mean it's not true.</p>

<p>In terms of your Chicago merit situation. Are you saying that if my S, who is also NMF, puts down Chicago as his first-choice school in order to get the $2,000 NMF school award, Chicago will reduce the $3,000 grant they awarded him by that amount? So, in effect, he would not gain anything as NMF?</p>

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<p>momof2inca: I'm not sure about your NMF question. We put it down as a first choice, mainly because it was the only school my kid applied to that recognized NMF. The NMF award was $1,000. We got nothing else. (We don't even qualify for a loan, according to them!). So, for us..we have an amazing state university as well (and did I mention currently the reigning NCAA champions?)...and it really is a terrific school that offers so much in terms of academics and programs--not to mention the weather and that gorgeous campus. My daughter just spent a long weekend there, and is sold. And she got into a lot of other great schools as well, but as I said--she's pretty much sold.</p>

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<p>Wow, that's great about your D's decision. I hope that my son comes back in two weeks feeling as good, because that would really help. Thanks for your input!</p>