<p>Alumother, the difficulty of psych/neuroscience courses varies by professor and school also.</p>
<p>My daughter graduates this weekend from a "reach" school. I say reach because it is one of those crapshoot schools that has a ridiculously low admit rate and is a reach for anyone, no matter how qualified. But it was a great fit for her. The first semester was tough for many reasons -- being far from home, some health issues and feeling a bit intimidated by those who had been better prepared at elite prep schools versus her public school. But she will graduate Phi Beta Kappa with a double major and tons of friends and the sense that this was the right place for her. I did worry that first semester but the students were supportive of each other and the environment was quite nurturing. So it worked out. She worked really, really hard but she would have done that anywhere because that is who she is.</p>
<p>Alumother.... as the parent of a kid with a 3.9+ GPA at a reach college I also kind of thought post #37 was somewhat insensitive. I mean... yeah, my kid is doing really well, but that doesn't mean I know or have much insight into why some other kid at the same college is having a hard time, much less kids attending different colleges with different majors. </p>
<p>I mean... there are a lot of different factors that come into play. It isn't all about slacking off -- sometimes there are differences in learning style or personality, as well as choice of major, that come into play. For example, even though my d. doesn't do well on standardized tests (which is why her reach schools were so reachy) - she writes well. I saw an article recently that said that the UC officials have now found that the SAT Writing is by far the most significant predictive test in terms of college GPA (and that was the ONE test that my d. actually did really well on) -- and my d. commented to me early during her first semester at how stunned she was to see the poor quality of writing produced by many of the students in her first-year writing section --and that is at an elite school known for producing writers. So maybe my d. has a skill and a talent - expressing herself well in writing -- that gives her an advantage at college. Maybe your kids share the same skill. Maybe there are some kids at the same college who are absolutely brilliant in other way, but struggle because writing is a weakness for them, so not only do they struggle to express themselves on papers and exams, but they even mess up when it comes to note taking during lectures. </p>
<p>I do think, from my experience, that "reach" is not what determines whether a kid will do well in a college. Discipline, effort, motivation all play a huge part -- as well as being proactive and willing to seek out help when needed. I mean, I also know that my d. will go to a prof's office hours whenever she runs into even a minor barrier -- I mean, she is the type of person who will question why she has an A- rather than an A, not to complain, but because she truly wants to know where it is that she is falling short. </p>
<p>At the same time I am sure that there are a lot of students who are putting in a lot of effort but having a harder time keeping up their GPA, maybe because of different courses & professors, or different issues with time management -- but I do also think that there can be very capable students who are working very hard but somehow don't find it so easy to gauge what is expected of them in each class and to do whatever is necessary to get the higher grades.</p>
<p>As a transfer student and have several friends at different schools, I can compare notes a bit. My first school, School A, was a match but slightly a reach (according to my GC). Colgate was a definite reach. Both have excellent academics with driven students. But the difference I saw largely came from the professors actually.</p>
<p>How did it go?
School A: Not bad though I felt that I was cruising through my courses in general. The only difficult class that I had that I experiencing lower grades than expected was my Intro to Judaism class. I really worked very hard to bring up my first grade in that course on my other assignments. I did end up with a higher GPA than in HS and made Dean's List at the end of the year.</p>
<p>Colgate: When a friend asked if Colgate was harder, I said to her, "It's like taking 3 of that Intro to Judaism prof's classes!" She was shocked. But I really enjoyed the demands from the professors to rise to their challenges. I really did love Colgate's academics.</p>
<p>Harder than expected?</p>
<p>School A: No.
Colgate: Yes though I was already well-aware from talking to students and my alumni dad. My dad did express concern that I wouldn't make it through Colgate with a 3.0 GPA and consistently reminded me in my first year there that Colgate was tough.</p>
<p>Easier than expected?</p>
<p>School A: Being my first college, yes!
Colgate: no.</p>
<p>Comforting?
School A: In some ways, it was comforting to be able to relax and take risks like taking intro to astronomy and Russian language. If anything, doing well in Russian helped to boost my confidence that I could learn languages after my failure in Spanish in HS.</p>
<p>Colgate: Very much as I thrive on challenges so once I settled in, I just became much happier and academically satisfied.</p>
<p>Stressful?
School A: No. More stress came from the student body.
Colgate: Much more so only partly because I was with other pretty darn smart, intelligent (most of the time..) kids who came from top of their classes. A lot of my stress came from trying to meet professors' demands and being tough on myself. And setting occasional over-the-top goals.</p>
<p>What made it worthwhile?</p>
<p>School A: The experience OUTSIDE of the classroom as I was put in a very diverse envrionment for the first time in my life. So I'd say that attending this school is really worthwhile in terms of what kind of student body it has to offer.</p>
<p>Colgate: Getting into Univeristy of Michigan for graduate school and receiving a research fellowship for my honors thesis :) But I always knew it was worth attending Colgate because I was enjoying the demanding academics and having my professors to push me to do my best.</p>
<p>What made it regrettable?
School A: For the reason above, none.
Colgate: At times before and during admissions process for graduate school, I questioned myself a lot whether it was a smart move considering that my GPA had dropped slightly. I wondered if I should've gone back to Smith so my GPA could be higher and I would have better chances of getting in.</p>
<p>Yes, admissions stats and academic rigor are two differeint things. Though my HS GPA and SAT scores were lower than two of my most academically successful friends at schools with similar academic rigor to Colgate, I've done just as well as the two of them. One is going off on Fulbright and is already admitted to med school in NY and the other is working towards applying for PhD programs.</p>
<p>But really, I think that it all depends on the student if the student is naturally a hard worker and thrives on challenges or not. The faculty at Colgate who knew that I transferred have said that it was a great move for me, regardless of whether they heard my reasons or not. They and my family and friends couldn't see me staying at School A given what works for me academically (though School A does have a fine reputation). I do think that this is part of the reason why I was admitted into Michigan- it's not the grades or standardized test scores but the ability to within any obstacles thrown at the student.</p>
<p>If a student with below-average numbers has been admitted to a reach school, admissinos or academically wise, she or he should ask himself or herself, "Do I thrive on challenges? Can I shake off my fears of my smart classmates? Am I independent?" If s/he can say yes to one of those questions, then by all means, go. It takes a pretty determined person who can advocate for himself or herself to be able to go to a reach school and not get lost.</p>
<p>I went to Carnegie Mellon as an engineering student. It was a slight reach, though the admissions person I talked to from the school during an interview said I shouldn't have too much to worry about.</p>
<p>I found the school to be a perfect fit for me, with most homework sets being just the right amount of difficulty. I graduated among the upper part of my friends (17 people in my major, so we all knew our relative standings) with around a 3.6 GPA.</p>
<p>I'm currently attending Caltech for grad school, which had been my reach school in undergrad. I've found the work to be way more demanding and in a style that's not too much to my liking (I loved CMU for it's 10+ hour homework sets), and I'm sure I would have been much less happy here than my undergrad school had I gotten in and decided to attend.</p>
<p>interesting- thanks- anyone got anymore stories to tell</p>
<p>anyone who went to a real reach- not just slight</p>
<p>Wneckid99, what I related about DD was a real reach. Her academic profile was at or just below the mid points, even though her grades and tests were well above average. The school has a very high profile. She works hard, does not get all A's, even gets a C+, but would not change a thing.</p>
<p>A couple years ago, Colby's valedictorian had originally been admitted via the waitlist.</p>
<p>Gee whiz. No fair scolding me when I already apologized.</p>
<p>And BTW my D does NOT have a 3.9.</p>
<p>So there.</p>
<p>Our son is at Duke which could be viewed as a reach for anyone just in terms of random admissions...his "stats" were in the mid to upper range but his actual high school education suffered from a lack of rigor...but we feel he struggled with only two aspects...a weak public high school with only a 50% graduation rate...so limited exposure to top students and parents with very ordinary accomplishments.</p>
<p>Which means that I think we sometimes feel less accomplished than some of the parents we hear about who have mega careers and talents. We failed to send our sons to a top publich or a private school and our son was clearly less polished and ready. And kids receiving aide can have incredible stories..with so many international and nationally diverse people on campus.</p>
<p>My view...pick the reach if your son or daughter feels invigorated...not intimidated. Our son was as happy as we had ever seen him in like two days flat..socially he loved being around so many talented people and he was not jealous of their talents. He thrives on enjoying the wonderful talents around him, and he has gotten a clear idea of what his talents are in comparison without getting discouraged.</p>
<p>Also pick the reach school if your son or daughter can bear it if they are going to be curved to the mean on standardized tests in class. My son was albe to take this emotionally and is not a future MD who must have a 3.5 to survive. He has a very good average but he was shell shocked when he realized that a significant number of people in all his classes FOREVER at Duke have math ability that is not in any way measured by the SATs. They ace everything. Duke and other selective schools have an obligation to find these savants and to educate them...and my son has not lost his self confidence and shines in an arena or two. We feel that this environment has helped make him stronger and helped him recognize the shape of things in the world. But...if he had wanted a 3.8 average..he would have to have gotten there with absolute discipline...he got mono and got over stretched freshman year but righted his boat and will graduate in great shape. No regrets, loves his friends. Socially...go for the social emotional fit is my advice...as the work is frankly very hard at any selective school.</p>
<p>Faline,
That's interesting! Great that your son has thrived.</p>
<p>Wondered how your son/you determined what school had a 'social emotional fit?' With these generic tours, look-alike websites and brochures it's pretty hard to tell something like that, it seems. The only real 'feel' we get from a school is through the tour guides (generally pretty friendly) and the admissions dept secretaries/staff!!</p>
<p>ticklemepink, you used school A to identify your college before Colgate but then you named school A in the end?</p>
<p>re how we determined the social emotional fit..that was awkward for a while..as we traveled at the last minute and visited schools in new cultures to us. He wanted a certain activity to be on campus that was important to his well being to be a part of, he actually had to have a sporty atmosphere to be happy....didn't have to be Div One though..and he is into the arts way more than many men...so he wanted a school with a significant cultural arts program. Because he was from a backwater area, he wanted a national/international student body and perhaps "needed" that exposure more than some kids from bigger places. He has actually done the things he said he was going to do in his apps..and has contributed and also soaked up both the cultural arts calendar and sports at Duke..many sports besides basketball are also great fun to watch there. We thought he was a bit introverted in HS but in fact he was an extrovert immediately at Duke..where he felt understood quickly and accepted although the students there are each rather unique in their own way. Truthfully, I think he would have been very happy at every school he applied to..and that each school on his list was a "fit"...Duke does have a fantastic cultural arts program though that serves the Triad and he attends most of those events. You do have to initiate to get to know the faculty at Duke a bit more than at a LAC..and that has been very important to him there..he has several mentors in various corners at Duke. For a bigger than a LAC school..you have to choose some programming that brings you into contact with intimate learning and he has done that three times at least and reaped the benefits...foreign study and bonding with a foreign language dept...choosing the FOCUS program for freshman year...choosing to take some outside courses that are enrichment with great teachers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I can only speak to psych/neuroscience, that's true. And it's kind of a softer science.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You sure aren't speaking for neuro & cog sci, either in terms of what it takes to get certain greats, or it being "soft", as it was at my alma mater.</p>
<p>I hate to keep poking at you after several people have already done so, but the attitude that you expressed - both the idea that anyone getting lower grades is a slacker, and the idea that neuro/cog is "soft" and anyone should be able to get good grades in it - caused me no end of misery as an undergrad. So I feel obligated to say something.</p>
<p>On an unrelated note, another observation that I made was that after the first year, and often after the first term, high school quality was largely irrelevant. You couldn't tell anymore who had been well-prepared and who hadn't. There were struggling students from top high schools, and star students from poor high schools.</p>
<p>On another note - a kid who is sufficiently intelligent to have been able to cruise through grade school without really putting in any effort, may have a disability or disorder (e.g. ADD) that never got diagnosed because they weren't having performance problems. At a difficult reach school where they actually have to work hard, the undiagnosed disorder may suddenly begin to cause problems...and the kid, having no context for understanding what is happening, is bewildered and demoralized and doesn't know what to do. I have seen this happen to people before.</p>
<p>Oh jeez. Softer than physics...That's the cog psych part. Neuroscience, when you go into the mol bio and physics and comp sci part, not so soft.</p>
<p>You know, you are all right. My daughter at Princeton gets As when she studies hard and Bs when she studies less hard. There you go. That's all I can say. I don't know anything more than my own experience.</p>
<p>Other than the Princeton Review's academic rating, how does one figure out how hard the school really is? Or does it vary by every major at every school? </p>
<p>My undergrad major required a lot of science for which I was not naturally suited, so I worked very hard. The rest of my friends were theatre majors who spent their time perfecting how to draw beard stubble on their faces and pretending they were warm chocolate chip cookies baking in the oven. Same school, vastly different academic experiences. I guess every school is like that?</p>
<p>Faline- Great posts. I'm glad Duke is such a good fit for your son and it sounds like he has great self-esteem and confidence. Wonderful!</p>
<p>I think grade deflation is often seen more in the Humanities, though this idea clearly violates the popular wisdom expressed here.</p>
<p>In high school it is easier to get an A in and English class if you are not an English person than an A in a Science class if you are not a science person.</p>
<p>At really demanding schools some students cannot earn an A in an English course no matter how hard they work because at the upper levels the humanities require talent as do math, science and history.</p>
<p>So I don't agree that someone getting A's in high school will get A's unless they slack off.</p>
<p>And the Ivy's are NOT the hardest graders, ether. This is true from both anecdotal and objective evidence.</p>
<p>OK. Let me address this issue with a bit more thought.</p>
<p>Again, only from personal experience. </p>
<p>D in high school never got anything but an A. She was told she was a genius by her English teacher (even she knew that was hyperbole) and that she was one of the best Calculus students in 10 years. She won a little award for Rotary student blah blah blah.</p>
<p>She got to Princeton. She was IMMEDIATELY clear that in English she was not close to a genius. She placed out of 100-level Calc and took Multivariable. Again, IMMEDIATELY clear that she wasn't going to get As at Princeton in mathematics without enormous effort at least and even then maybe not given the caliber of the other math students.</p>
<p>However, courses where she had a natural affinity, or an extremely good background (Religion, thanks Catholic school), she gets As if she studies. So she chose a major that fit her skills. When she goes too far towards physics, she struggles. In the Cognitive Psych area, she does very well.</p>
<p>So the caveat I obviously should have put in my first post is this.</p>
<p>Your high school star at the reach school is likely to find that in order to continue to do very well in school you have to a) choose an area of study which best fits your skills b) study hard. There is clearly from what others say the issue of a curve etc. In my D's area of study, that has in fact not proved to be a problem, despite Princeton's policy of only 30% As. The major factor for her would be choosing classes and a major that match your skills.</p>
<p>This is the only arena I can speak to. And I spoke having told my daughter that her grades in college are her business and I put zero pressure on her. And seeing her make some choices I think are wise and other than are less wise.</p>
<p>There you have it.</p>
<p>Alumother: That last post sounds very accurate and reasonable for anyone. For many, college seems to be about finding out what one is really good at and what one is moderately good at. And in addition, finding out what one if really motivated enough to overcome difficulties.</p>
<p>For example, my S has gotten A's frosh year in English (loves but not isgreat love) and a B- in music theory (music his great love.)</p>
<p>He is at a very difficult LAC, and the music course, six credits at most schools theory + musicianship (ear training) is a very full three credit course at his school.</p>
<p>Distraught (music had always been his most successful venue) he spoke with profs who said that result was definitely good enough to go on with the major.</p>
<p>So he plans to double major in English and Music, a good plan at this point.</p>
<p>If he had gotten a B- with tons of work in Biology he would not have pursued that because it's not a great enough passion, though he did adore biology in HS and thought of being a doctor for a long while. Has ruled it out.</p>
<p>(PS did better in college in Biology and Music.)</p>