What's it like for a kid to attend the reach school?

Parents Forum
61

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The major factor for her would be choosing classes and a major that match your skills.

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<p>That's an excellent point, but I want to add something to it. If different departments have different styles of student evaluation, some may be better-suited to an individual student than others.</p>

<p>For instance, some students, even if they are good at the subject, will have a difficult time in a department where 100% of the grade comes from exam scores and the final is worth 50%. Some students will think this is a perfect setup. Some students do well with open-book tests, even though such tests are usually designed to be much harder than closed-book. Some are the other way around. Some students will do great, or poorly, in a department with heavy emphasis on papers, or oral presentations, or regular problem sets that are a large part of the grade, or what have you.</p>

<p>Learning this was very useful to me. I (finally, somewhat later than would have been preferable) realized that there were certain grading rubrics under which I nearly always underperformed (and that they were unfortunately common in my department) relative to, say, my understanding of lectures or performance in class discussions, and that there were other rubrics under which I tended to do well. So I was able to 1) take this into account when choosing between interesting-looking classes, and 2) if I did have to take a class that was set up in a "bad" way for me, realize ahead of time that I might have a problem and make strategic plans to minimize it.</p>

<p>I wish I had figured that out as a freshman instead of after my junior year. First term senior year was, according to many people's standards, one of my most "difficult" (in terms of the class material), but it was also my best in terms of grades.</p>

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<p>I think Alumother makes good points in her expanded post and jessiehl makes some very good ones in response.</p>

<p>Some students (my S being one) find they are at a school and in a department where they cannot count on A's in their area of affinity. They (he) will get some, but cannot count on it via having affinity and working hard. I don't understand all of the reasons - I mentioned the curve; jessie mentions the methods of evaluation; there may be other factors.</p>

<p>But some students (again my S being one) choose to stay with the school and the department because that is where they want to be, that is what they want to study knowing that they cannot count on A's. When S received his lifetime first C+ <em>in his area of affinity</em>, we asked if he might want to consider changing majors. But he didn't. Majoring in his chosen field, even if he might end up in the 3.0-3.6GPA range instead of the 3.6-4.0GPA range, was what he wanted.</p>

<p>It looks like he will end up in the 3.5ish world, but there was a time when we and he only hoped (because in his field GPA is part of the hiring process) that he could make the 3.0.</p>

<p>That is part of the choice some students attending reachier schools in fields with stiff grading might be making. And some will weigh the pros and cons and make that choice. Getting A's not being their highest priority any more.</p>

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<p>I couldn't agree more that getting A's is not the highest priority any more for many kids at reach schools. Unless you want to go to law school, medical school, or work for an investment banking firm or management consulting firm, GPA is not the be-all-and-end-all. I also personally believe, and have told my kids, that I owned their academic record up through 12th grade but the minute they start college it is all theirs:). I owned their academic record in high school - well, yeah, that's an exaggeration, but they were living in my house and eating my dinners and using my capacity to provide for them and I felt they needed to show me they had internalized my values. </p>

<p>College, IMO, is where they have to start to prune values and throw values into very hot fires and see which values they themselves truly hold vs. which ones they took on to make Mom happy. They need to find out how they themselves feel about performance and effort and recognition, because people can feel very differently in the adult world about these issues and as a result choose and be happy with very different lives.</p>

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<p>At the least this is pretty old at this point. And I don't think that correlation with the LSAT says much about an engineering program, for example.</p>

<p>Also, at this point the level of redirection (i.e. I said that a site said that the LA Times said that Berkeley said...) is pretty deep. (Amusing, perhaps - is this what lawyers mean when they talk about hearsay?).</p>

<p>I'd be grateful if there is more recent information that someone could post.</p>

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<p>Faline's and Calmom's posts are very reassuring to me...can't read it all so I'm posting so I can look fro the red dot later. Glad someone suggested namimg names!</p>

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<p>Another thought: another measure of success in college is learning how to learn. For example, DS went to a small public HS --college-prep that really emphasizes a college-like approach to learning around "essential questions" and how to attack a subject from various angles--science, literature, history, e.g. He felt immediately comfortable at his liberal arts college. However, he enrolled in intro to Psych, one of the largest classes there with over 100 kids, an anomaly--but typical of "intro" required classes at other schools. There he was taking Scantron tests, which he had never seen in his life! he also began getting grades he'd never seen in his life! (oops) However, he took advantage of office hours, upperclassmen and learned how to study for the Scantron tests and did ok. I don't think he'll ever be a Psych major! Many of his classmates had vast experience with the Scantron format and helped S1, conversely, he worked with these students in small (15-20) member classes learning a format he was familiar with. </p>

<p>In other words, the grade in the Psych class wasn't "successful" by GPA standards, but his approach to figuring it all out was a tremendous success.</p>

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<p>Having completed my first year, I can offer my advice.</p>

<p>Duke was my dream school. When you get to the top 10 universities, you can't really say they are a match for anyone. I had pretty decent stats, SATs in the low 1500s (old), salutorian of my class (best public high school in state), president of NHS, cheerleading captain, National Merit, etc. Duke was definitely a reach, but not impossible. So you can imagine how estatic I was when I got in.</p>

<p>Duke has opened up my eyes to what "the real world" is like and what "real competition is". Never have I met so many bright, intelligent, driven, well rounded people. The typical Duke student was valdectorian of her class, captain of 3 clubs, presiddent of her class, started an orphange in south africa, and scored in the top 99% of her standardized tests, etc. Now imagine 6000 other students like that and you are in a bubble of a 5 mile radius. I will admit, for 2/3s of the year, this was very hard for me. In high school, I stressed out not setting the curve on certain tests; now at duke, it' sa matter of just passing the class. I study my butt off in certain classes in hopes I can get a C. It's hard, because in certain classes (cough, econ, cough math 103) where not only is there a true bell curve distribution (avg. grade C, C+) but everyone else in that class is freaking smart (they know of the hard curve yet still take the course) you are just struggling to stay afloat (ie, not fail the course).</p>

<p>I know my roommate (bright girl, got 1400s SAT, BME major) was on the verge of getting academically suspended. She partied, but she definitely did her work during the year. I know of other people who are on academic probation and who were scared if they weren't going to come back next year because of the fear of academic suspension.</p>

<p>That being said, Duke has far exceeded my expectations in how hard it would be. </p>

<p>In addition to that, Duke has exceeded my expectations on how much money people have (there are students whose parents probably have more money than all the people in your state combined), how intelligent/passionate/driven people can be, and how damn well-rounded and good at everything they are.</p>

<p>I'll admit, I do have regrets at times. I was offered a near full-ride to UVA and turned it down for full tuition at Duke. But I think Duke has opened my eyes up to what my real competition in teh real world will be, humbled me, and made me realize life isn't always fair.</p>

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<p>sorry about grammar/mispellings. i'm tired</p>

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<p>bluedevilgirlie - a charming post. An eye-opener for parents, certainly. I'll send it to my kids.</p>

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<p>hang tough, blue devil girl. you are doing fine. it is indeed quite a shock to be bell curved with a room full of top 2% SAT takers (I think our son missed 3 on the SAT Math, but sad when you realize big deal...)....my son's caveat was meeting people in class whose math ability was on another stratosphere entirely....and he turned them into......ta-da....TUTORS! By spring of son's freshman Duke year, we were paying someone in his freshman dorm for weekly lessons..and he was fantastic. What a great guy. It is a bit of a shock when with your own eyes you can see that a segment of the class can knock out this work with half the effort you put in. However, we just go...golly..sure hope he is going to be the surgeon/engineer/whatever...I am seeking when I need help one day! I bet you also admire some of your classmates greatly while you are laboring to keep up. Here is what happens next though...all of a sudden my son was much much more able in math than ever and he can understand the upper level courses quite well. Yeah..those same savants are still in the upper level classes ruining the curves for lesser humans. But I promise you will start to feel the ground under your feet and get stronger and stronger. Do yourself a favor and always take something every semester where you shine. Seek out some small group learning experiences to balance out the curved large classes and their dehumanizing edge. have faith in yourself and be proud of your classmates, and soak in the privilege of your learning community with more joy than fear..you are going to be fine and you have all you need to succeed.</p>

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<p>The discussion in this thread is fascinating - especially in the upbeat attitude of so many students and parents about the benefits of being challenged well beyond one's comfort zone - as outweighing the many potential negatives (lower grades/gpa; adjusting expectations after success in HS; anxiety about one's inherent abilities and prospects for the future ...). Perhaps this is one of the most important admissions criteria for highly selective colleges: which students will keep smiling (most of the time!) amidst all the pressures?</p>

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<p>okay bluedevilgirlie, that was NOT reassuring... yikes! Faline; thanks again!</p>

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<p>The benefits of attending a reach school depend on your personal qualities. I'm the kind who is easily discouraged around superior human beings. I tend to be slower/less bright than the people around me, but I work harder than most people and end up doing alright in my classes. But even hard work can't compensate for a lack of talent : P </p>

<p>But I'm in the process of adopting a new attitude towards things like this, so maybe attending a reach school will end up being beneficial to me?</p>

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<p>Myarmin, you'd be surprised how much work ethic matters: some kids for whom HS came easily are wholly unprepared to buckle down in a stimulating, academic college environment. Conversely, the "still waters run deep" maxim applies--some of the smartest kids around aren't the obvious ones. The most important thing is that you enjoy the journey: if a less rigorous environment makes you feel in better control, and you believe that environment is one you'll thrive in, go for it! However, don't be afraid that a "reach" school is out of reach for you simply because of the statistics of the people who go there. You're not competing with them--your college accepted YOU, and they believe in your ability to succeed.</p>

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<p>I will share my experience, although it's decades old. I went to Yale from a public high school that had no APs, no calculus, and very little writing. There is no question that I was way less prepared than a lot of my classmates. However, I have to say that I didn't find most of my classes to be excessively hard--but I was an English major. There were some significant exceptions, though: math and French. I found calculus to be very difficult, because I wasn't well prepared (and intro calc wasn't well taught, either). In French, I thought I spoke and understood the language pretty well, but the other kids in the class could REALLY speak it. That was tough. Overall, though, I didn't feel inferior and had a great time.
But I think things have changed, and the prevalence of AP means that most competitive kids are better prepared than that. What's more, remember that if you get into a reach school, there are probably hundreds of kids with lower grades and scores than you who could probably do well there too.</p>

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<p>I think one thing that makes the choice difficult is that many kids have no idea how it will work out. </p>

<p>My own kid had test scores that would be above the 75th percentile at any college and high school grades that were probably below the 25th at the college she attended--which is a reach for anyone. College--at least in many majors--has less "busy work" than high school. My kid was the one who got As on exams in high school, but lost points for not turning in homework or turning it in late. </p>

<p>You also are better able to avoid courses in areas you just don't "get" in college. You can take more courses in the things you excel in. And, in my kid's case, high schools rarely offer more than one--and sometimes not even one--course in the fields where my kid is strongest. </p>

<p>So, college was one heck of a lot easier than high school for my kid--and grades were much better too. </p>

<p>Over a dozen kids from my kid's high school class went to Harvard. (My kid did not.) These included the high school valedictorian. Three of those kids ended up Phi Beta Kappa and one was valedictorian of his Harvard class. The val of the high school class didn't make PBK--or come close--and studied a LOT. </p>

<p>I really think it's because she was a kid who was a bit of a jack of all trades--she got As in everything in high school, but wasn't really the BEST in any subject. The kid who was Harvard val majored in a subject which isn't offered in their high school. I doubt he was in the top 10 in their high school class.</p>

<p>Oh, yes, it was a NYC public magnet..so it was an unusually competitive high school. Still the point is that how one does in high school doesn't always predict how one will do in college. I think the kids who genuinely excel in one or a few fields but may struggle in others often do better in college. Conversely, the kid whose grades on homework were BETTER than test averages and brought up their grades that way may struggle. </p>

<p>And my kid has ALWAYS done better when there is competition. She's the hare in that story about the tortoise and the hare. She just doesn't work that hard if she doesn't have any competition. She's the kind of person who if thrust into the Olympics --and she's not an athlete--would run or swim her personal best, even though she knew she was guaranteed last place. So, we always knew that the REACH school was a necessity for her. It's just her personality.</p>

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<p>Excellent posts, bluedevilgirlie and Faline2's response (#68 and 70). I think they each capture a lot of the experience my son has had at Hopkins. No two kids live it exactly the same; but he experienced a lot of what bluedevilgirlie describes; and - just as she describes - it may be in only one or two courses. He also benefite from some of the kinds of things Faline2 describes. Although I can't say he did quite the brilliant job FalineSon did with learning from/working with his uber-gifted peers, I know that he did tweak study partners in certain courses which helped him out a lot.</p>

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<p>Hopkins and Duke (and scores of other schools) have tons of kids who are not only bright..they will sacrifice their lives to get the grades for grad school, and they are work horses. Our son is responsible and dear, but he does have a social life and has to spend a certain amount of time weekly in the arts to be happy. We are not above wishful thinking/assuming sometimes that our son would be PBK at a less selective school, but in our hearts we don't believe that for instance..he had a calling that was lost at Duke due to the curving and challenging peers and grades. The world has not been deprived of a future doc is my point. He is going the business routhe and works this summer for someone who practically blew off college and is hugely successful.<br>
Jmmom...your boy showed so much mettle when his first year was decimated by a Hurricane and he had to be so very very socially IQ adept to make his first year of college count. You are way too modest about him, he is a champ. I am too lazy to look this up but younger son spent last summer at Hopkins and I believe that the top quartile in the undergrad program now missed like zero on the SAT math..or close to that. Ditto at Duke. So..let's be clear that you can get that done with smarts and effort but there are some kids who do that with less effort and they simply have brains who can take math and abstract thinking to the next level. SAT math proves you are adept and ready but does not signify you are going to go to the higher realms of that kind of thinking. What a shock to discover when you are 18 that mastering the SAT math is only the foundation the rest of subjects are built on? I am proud of our son for not being crushed by his first C performances, and it is hard to keep this in perspective, truly. I am most proud though of his ability to have high regard for others...which those of us in mental health fields use as a measure of good mental outlook, especially if you also retain faith in yourself. All very challenging in a place like JHU. I do love their admissions blogs though..very user friendly and like MITs...they have a way of easing that sense of intimidation for prospective students.</p>

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<p>Faline; Help; I don't get this part</p>

<p>We are not above wishful thinking/assuming sometimes that our son would be PBK at a less selective school, but in our hearts we don't believe that for instance..he had a calling that was lost at Duke due to the curving and challenging peers and grades.</p>

<p>What is PBK? What was the calling that was lost?</p>

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<p>sorry..i mean phi beta kappa...graduating at the top of the class, standing out among all super students...and people who feel a calling to be a doc for instance have more need to hit the marks in terms of making good grades in science intro classes...all of this is discussed in more depth on the premed pages at CC (for instance I think med schools evaluate your average grades in premed courses and your all over average as two different categories, with more leeway given to your science average not having to be quite so high..and some undergrad schools of course have less grade inflation than others etc.)...my son not being a doc is not a loss to humanity and was not a calling for him...but since he had super high school stats, it is sometimes still for us an adjustment as it was for him..to ever experience a C performance among his peers. Prelaw students..well, my spouse is an attorney and he reminds me that many law schools are open to the non superstars but prelaw requires good LSATs and good GPA in many law schools...he does not have a calling there either...</p>