<p>Dad02 you remind me of the engineers in my family. Sorry no B/W in life these days - even with an MBA you need to choose a concentration. Finance, Int'l Business, Organizational Leadership, Accounting, Lean Manufacturing whatever schools have slight variations in concentrations...so an MBA is not one dimensional. Some universities have dual degrees so as example an engineer might take a Masters in Engineering in conjunction with the core curriculum from the MBA school.</p>
<p>If you go to graduate school, professional school, or get a degree in computer science, economics, or math, you're fine, right?</p>
<p>Sheesh...I couldn't imagine myself as anything other than an anthropology major. Hopefully I'll discover a talent in math or economics, something that'll make some amount of money.</p>
<p>If all else fails I'll just become a paralegal, lol.</p>
<p>The fact is, if you're coming from a top LAC (as you are Alchemy) and you do well in college and at your first job, you will have ample opportunities that any other university grad would have. Anyone that graduates with an English degree is going to face the same "obstacles," whether they come from Princeton or Swarthmore. However, they're not really obstacles at all, but in comparison to your engineering/math/science major peers, you will not be making as much money.</p>
<p>In the end, all degrees seem to plateau. Even if you are an engineering grad, you will reach a point where things are completely dependent on your performace in the workplace, not what your major was. But eventually, whether you're a math/english/philosophy/art history major, you're going to need to go back and get a higher terminal degree in most cases if you want to continue to "move up" within a company.</p>
<p>Alchemy, I really admire paralegals...jumping out of airplanes with sheaves of legal briefs can't be easy.</p>
<p>Do2, urchins? You got urchins? I had a moppet. Or maybe a frisket.</p>
<p>brand is absolutely right which was my point about the Tortoise and the Hare. Some colleges survey their graduating classes 5 and 10 years out and by 10 years. Also again I want to pound home the importance of internships these days. I was talking last night with a prof at a nearby state U and we got to the subject of interns. My company HR department likes to hire our interns when possible and he was saying that 70% of their u's interns ultimately end up working for the company they interned for. They run a bootcamp for their engineering/math/computer students to help them with their writing and interviewing skills which I think is a really good idea as those types of kids get less of that in their classes. I think the importance of the internship is a marked change from 30 years ago.</p>
<p>I thought the NPV calculations at the end of this article were interesting. They obviously used NPV cost of a public university education, but you could do the same using the cost of your individual college situation.</p>
<p>Other links, similar information...</p>
<p>Alchemy:</p>
<p>I've met a number of anthro grads. Many of them are drawn to public service of some kind, often involving foreign travel. Some are working for NGOs, some in public health, some have gone into medicine; there are in fact profs with appointments in both medical anthropology and medicine (psychiatry, in particular). One book that is assigned in many medical schools is Anne Fadiman's The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down about the cultural abyss between the parents of an epileptic Hmong girls and the American doctors who tried to treat her. There are two cultural anthropologists cited in the book, Eric Crystal and Arthur Kleinman. The latter has a medical degree as well as a Ph.D. in anthropology.</p>
<p>I'm struck by the dismissive tone of so many posts on this thread. If one believes in the value of the liberal arts degree, s/he feels the need to dismiss a business degree as "education lite" or an engineering degree as some variant of voc/tech which fails to engage the student in critical thinking. </p>
<p>Silly. Maybe my perspective is a little more open as my family covers all the bases. I have a liberal arts degree from a pure LAC (Wellesley), but then I do have two advanced degrees. One in business. I'm married to and parent to Engineers.</p>
<p>From my vantage point, I see this re the Engineering degree: extensive focus on analytical thinking, critical thinking and problem solving in the Engineering curriculum; breadth and depth requirements in the humanities and social sciences, including going to at least the 300-level in one field outside of Engineering; requirements for writing-intensive courses to get that degree. Seems a lot like what the liberal arts degree is touting. I might wish my S had more opportunity to do even more in some arts fields, but I do NOT think that he is in a voc/tech field.</p>
<p>And I know this re the Business degree. Courses like Organizational Behavior, which someone sneered at, above, are - in fact - the equivalent of complex sociology courses involving the same kind of reading, thinking and writing. There is also a lot of writing in the Business curriculum and focus on the ability to communicate orally as well. mini has addressed quite clearly the breadth of education the current undergrad bus major gets in several disciplines prior to being admitted to the undergrad bus major in schools such as UMd-CP and others.</p>
<p>No need to demean the other paths in order to champion one's own favorite. JMHO.</p>
<p>jmmom, I agree. It seems like there is a sort of read-between-the-lines opinion that the typical engineer sits in the corner at the party drooling with slide rule in pocket. Me, I studied both music and business in college and ended up with a BS in business. I took a heck of a lot of writing and humanities although much of that is a mish-mash between the music and the business requirements (I graduated with lots of hours).</p>
<p>As the wife of an engineer, I do NOT see the lack of worldliness and depth of thinking in the engineering community. Most engineers I know are quite artistic or musical (on the side). In addition, the disposal income that engineers have throughout their careers (starting from day 1- take for instance average salary of chemical engineer: $62K), afford them the ability to be well traveled and have more outside hobbies and creative outlets at an earlier stage in their careers. The young engineers I knew when H and I were courting were far more sophisticated in terms of hobbies and activities than the rest of the 20 year olds I knew that were scrapping out a living to make ends meet. I don't see the cultural shallowness that is suggested on these threads with my husband or any of his cohorts. We like to read, travel, go to museums, discuss politics and religion like everyone else.</p>
<p>When it comes to current requirements, I just wish folks would go to the college websites. They'd quickly find out (my examples being UMaryland, UWashington, and UMinnesota) that not only do the business majors have to take the same liberal arts classes as the liberal arts majors, they are required to do BETTER in them than the liberal arts majors in order to enter the business program. A liberal arts major can enter his/her junior year with a GPA of 2.5 (or even less) and go on; a business major will find a floor - in the same classes - of 3.0 - 3.2.</p>
<p>It just isn't the way it used to be.</p>
<p>One poster wondered what became of grads from places like Goucher.</p>
<p>Here is a link to a portion of the Goucher web site highlighting some graduates. It indicates each graduate's major, and gives a thumbnail profile of what each is doing now:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.goucher.edu/x623.xml%5B/url%5D">http://www.goucher.edu/x623.xml</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Following your advice, I checked the site at <a href="http://www.csom.umn.edu/Page4617.aspx%5B/url%5D">http://www.csom.umn.edu/Page4617.aspx</a> and I fail to see the relevance of the example at the University of Minnesota. The main admission is at the freshman level (similar to the University of Texas but different from, say, Arizona State) and it is obvious that transfer students are supposed to be more competitive than the average student at the school.</p>
<p>Have a better example? </p>
<p>PS</p>
<p>
[quote]
Each fall, the Carlson School enrolls approximately 450 freshmen students. Admission is very competitive, and we encourage prospective students to start preparing early. Admission is based upon an overall assessment of the applicant's background and accomplishments, as presented in the application materials. </p>
<p>Each fall, approximately 1,000 transfer students apply for 150 spaces at the Carlson School. Admission is competitive and we encourage prospective students to start preparing early. The application deadline is March 1st.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I find this to be interesting. There are different requirements for Dean's List depending on the college (UF):</p>
<p>Mini's point is that most better UG business schools have tougher admissions be at as a freshman or after two years. Most of the better ones that take in applicants after two years require at least a 3.0 or better with the average being closer to a 3.5. See Michigan, UVa , Wisconsin etc. Or freshman are required to have significantly higher stats--Illinois, Indiana and others.</p>
<p>Blossom, You had mentioned doing HR work for liberal arts grads in speechwriting. If you (or any other reader) would be kind enough to PM me about what's involved in being a speechwriter and how to break into that arena, I would really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Fred</p>
<p>From UMd-CP <a href="http://www.smith.umd.edu/undergrad/admissionrequirements.html%5B/url%5D%5Bquote%5DFreshmen">http://www.smith.umd.edu/undergrad/admissionrequirements.html
[quote]
Freshmen</a>
Direct admission to the School is offered on a space-available basis to first-time applicants who present the most competitive academic records. ...All students admitted as freshmen must demonstrate satisfactory progress plus completion of Gateway courses (BMGT 220, BMGT 230, ECON 200 or 201, and MATH 220 or 140--each with "C" or better) by the semester they reach 45 credits (excluding AP & ESL), at which time they will be reviewed in order to continue in the BMGT major. </p>
<p>Internal and External Transfer Students
All students applying for admission to BMGT as transfer students—whether internal transfers already enrolled at UMCP or external transfer students entering the university for the first time—will be subject to competitive admission for a limited number of spaces in the BMGT program at each program location.<br>
Minimum 3.0 cumulative GPA (preferred, may vary based upon the applicant pool)
Minimum junior standing—60 credits earned
Completion of 50% of lower-level university core requirements
Completion of Gateway courses, all with “C“ or better:
BMGT 220 & 221 Principles of Accounting I & II
ECON 200 & 201 Principles of Micro- & Macro-Economics
ENGL 101 Introduction to Writing
MATH 220 or 140 Calculus I
BMGT 230 or BMGT 231 (or equivalent ) Business Statistics
Co-curricular involvement, leadership experience and honors and awards will also be considered in the admission decision. Students are strongly encouraged to submit with their applications a resume and letter detailing their accomplishments and experience.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>^^--^^ Oh, Barrons, I know what Mini's point was supposed to be. Problem was that the given example hardly supported his or her thesis! </p>
<p>And, by the way, since you were the one writing:
[quote]
"I believe Smith would also make the list of elite LAC's. I would like to know what happens to the 80% of grads who get dinged by the Ibanks--which as many know is not for everyone either. Better yet what happens to the grads from the #75 LAC. Or the liberal arts majors from schools like Goucher or Grinnell who are not on the Ibank lists.
[/quote]
can we also inquire about the admission requirements at schools that fall well below the stiff requirements at business powerhouses such as the University of Texas, UNC, or UIUC and maybe your beloved Wisconsin? What does happen at the schools ranked below a ranking of 75, and at the hundreds of schools that graduate thousands and thousands business students with an ubiquitous degree but still in need of remedial education?</p>
<p>But xiggi, aren't these two entirely different questions? The calibre of the education one receives is one question. The insinuation that one's choice of field automatically dictates the calibre of one's education (that business and engineering students are failing to learn critical thinking, how to write etc.) is what I believe mini and I were addressing.</p>
<p>Certainly it is possible that some folks graduate from college and still need remedial education. Corporate spokesmen have lamented that. But that could happen with any number of majors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The insinuation that one's choice of field automatically dictates the calibre of one's education (that business and engineering students are failing to learn critical thinking, how to write etc.) is what I believe mini and I were addressing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fwiw, I do NOT believe that that business and engineering students are automatically failing to learn critical thinking or competent writing skills because of their choice of field or even the calibre of the school where they pursue their education. The key word, however, is ... automatically! Remove that small qualifier and we do have a completely different outcome because of the vast differences in admisssion requirements, graduation requirements, and curriculum among schools that offer business degrees.</p>
<p>For the record, I raised a direct objection regarding HOW minimum graduation requirements could be achieved, namely through the use of credits of dubious origins such as watered down AP, IB, or dual credit classes. For the record, I know EXACTLY which classes I could have "skipped" had I attended the University of Texas at Austin, by using several dozens of credits. In theory, the requirements -especially the Liberal Arts' ones-- would have met; In practice, the thought that those credits could be viewed as comparable to a TRUE college education is frightening. </p>
<p>I did understand the point addressed by Mini -and I believe yours- I simply have good reasons for not agreeing with the ... insinuation of the superiority of the programs extolled by Mini, especially at non-competitive business schools. If students still need remedial classes at graduation, it is obvious they did not possess the skills before being admitted and did not learn them during their stay at the school.</p>
<p>Again the issue is not if one path is better than another.</p>