What's the fate of liberal arts grads?

Parents Forum
141

<p>"What does happen at the schools ranked below a ranking of 75, and at the hundreds of schools that graduate thousands and thousands business students with an ubiquitous degree but still in need of remedial education?"</p>

<p>I doubt they are any worse off than the liberal arts grads from the same schools. Unfortunately they tend not to have the detailed placement reports of the better schools but I have one in mind I'll check on and report back.</p>

<p>OK, directional state school with easy admissions. Slightly dated report but most recent. B School majors seem better off than LA.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.niu.edu/careerservices/pdf/grad_followup_2003.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.niu.edu/careerservices/pdf/grad_followup_2003.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

142

<p>"Following your advice, I checked the site at <a href="http://www.csom.umn.edu/Page4617.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.csom.umn.edu/Page4617.aspx&lt;/a> and I fail to see the relevance of the example at the University of Minnesota. The main admission is at the freshman level (similar to the University of Texas but different from, say, Arizona State) and it is obvious that transfer students are supposed to be more competitive than the average student at the school."</p>

<p>At Carlson, (UMinn), you will find the average entering ACT/SAT higher than that of any other part of the UMinn system (AND, last time I looked, it was the only part of the system that required physics! Don't ask me why.</p>

<p>Requirements:</p>

<p>4 years of English, with an emphasis on writing, including instruction in reading, speaking, and literary understanding and interpretation</p>

<p>4 years of math, including 1 year each of elementary algebra, geometry in 2 and 3 dimensions, trigonometry, and intermediate algebra (integrated math 1, 2, & 3)</p>

<p>3 years of science, with laboratory experience, including 1 year each of biological science, chemistry, and physics</p>

<p>2 years of a single second language</p>

<p>3 years of social studies, including 1 year each of geography and US history</p>

<p>1 year of visual and/or performing arts </p>

<p>--</p>

<p>At all three schools, required GPAs to enter the program junior year are higher (actually, much higher) than to enter a liberal arts major. Generally 3.0 or 3.2 GPA or better - in the same liberal arts classes as the liberal arts majors, who usually can continue on to their major with a C or better.</p>

143

<p>More from the UMD Smith website on admission to the business program for junior/senior year:</p>

<p>"Unfortunately, under fully competitive admissions, admission is not assured. However, you can determine the probability that you would be admitted as follows: </p>

<p>High Probability – High GPA (above 3.5), A’s and B’s in Gateway courses, with no repeats; evidence of outstanding leadership, special accomplishments, significant work or volunteer experience
Moderate Probability – Good GPA (3.0 – 3.5), A’s and B’s in Gateway courses, no repeats
Low Probability – Low GPA (below 3.0), missing course requirements, low grades/repeats in Gateway courses."</p>

<p>In contrast, an English major, a Biology major, or a Poli. Sci. majaor, taking exactly the same courses in the same classes, would require a 2.0, with no leadership, special accomplishments, significant work or volunteer experience considered.</p>

<p>Things ain't the way they used to be.</p>

144

<p>I've become increasingly skeptical about the link between university/college name recognition and employment opportunities. Though I'm much (much!!!) younger than mini, my experience mimic's his in that I have never had an employer who was familiar with my alma mater. On several occasions, I beat out job candidates from top ivies, despite having attended an "obscure" post-secondary institution.</p>

<p>I'm now a graduate student at a top Ivy, and was accepted everywhere that I applied except for my safety school, which was likely comprised of adcoms unfamiliar with my alma mater :-)</p>

145

<p>"I beat out job candidates from top ivies, despite having attended an "obscure" post-secondary institution."</p>

<p>Obscure, yes, but come to my state and there are enough purple "W"s to make the heart go pitter-patter ;). (Whitman, unfortunately, has some kind of strange slate blue.)</p>

146

<p>Mini, again, regular admissions and transfer admissions are not the same thing. For your examples to have some validity, you need to use schools where the COMMON admission is at the junior level a la ASU.</p>

147

<p>Mini,</p>

<p>Maybe you got your job in washington because your employer thought you went to Whitman</p>

148

<p>Nah. Washington State (Wazoo) wouldda helped, as would BYU, but Whitman is for the lawyering persuasion.</p>

<p>"Mini, again, regular admissions and transfer admissions are not the same thing. For your examples to have some validity, you need to use schools where the COMMON admission is at the junior level a la ASU."</p>

<p>Take a look again at UMD. Very, very limited first-year admissions. The vast majority are junior year, and they bill the program as the last two years of a UMD education.</p>

149

<p>"At the Smith School of Business, a minimum of 120 credit hours are required to complete a Bachelor of Science degree. Besides the specific Smith School of Business requirements listed below, a student must complete the University's CORE General Education Requirements (see online undergraduate catalog for details) and sufficient lower and upper level elective credit to accumulate a total of 120 credit hours. A minimum of 58 credit hours of the required 120 hours must be in 300-400 (upper) level courses. Additional Smith School of Business degree requirements are listed below."</p>

<p>Freshman admissions are on a "space available" basis only, with qualifiications much, much higher than general admissions for liberal arts. Students admitted are closer to those admitted to Wharton than to UMD generally speaking - the idea being that they can get guaranteed UMD-Smith admissions, but at a much lower cost than they would spend at Wharton or Stern, etc.</p>

150

<p>per <a href="http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/undergrad/admissionrequirements.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/undergrad/admissionrequirements.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Freshmen </p>

<p>Direct admission to the School is offered on a space-available basis to first-time applicants who present the most competitive academic records. All students admitted directly to BMGT as freshmen must demonstrate satisfactory progress. </p>

<p>All students admitted as freshmen must demonstrate satisfactory progress (2.0 or better) plus completion of Gateway courses (BMGT 220, BMGT 230, ECON 200 or 201, and MATH 220 or 140--each with "C" or better) by the semester they reach 45 credits (excluding AP & ESL), at which time they will be reviewed in order to continue in the BMGT major. (Note: Only one repeat of one single course to the set of Gateway courses will be accepted to remain in BMGT. Appeals will be considered.)

[/quote]
</p>

151

<p>Fate of liberal arts students?
At 40-50K loans per year racked up I think they are doomed.</p>

152

<p>And at $0?</p>

153

<p>the situation which jmmom cited w/r to UMd business school admission is what is referred to as enrollment control in higher education.</p>

<p>Anyone with a student enrolling in a college with the intention to major in business, engineering, compsci, et al should look into this. LAC's rarely if ever use enrollment control but many public flagship universities do. And because they are used to ensure a maximum upper limit on the class, the gpa standard often vary from year to year. I know at my alma mater a few years back when compsci was a hot major the gpa requirement went as high as 3.2. And this included all the prepartory calc, physics, compsci core courses. No mean feat.</p>

154

<p>I believe that initially the prospects for LA's grads is mediocre. I had the opportunity to look at the entry level salaries of Columbia liberal arts grads and it was about $35,000, a pittance considering that many probably landed jobs in NYC. LAC majors should assume that they will be underpaid and underemployed come graduation time.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, and there is always a however, I think that if we could look 10 years into the future these same Columbia liberal arts grads will be doing fantastic. And not because of their la major but because of their talent, dedication and creativity.</p>

155

<p>Just found some a list of the recent math majors at Williams and their destinations.. Some variety with a definite tilt towards the financial sector.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/Mathematics/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/Mathematics/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>select "majors" and then select "Post-graduate plans"</p>

156

<p>
[quote]
Fate of liberal arts students?
At 40-50K loans per year racked up I think they are doomed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It should be assumed that all majors at an LAC are liberal arts majors. Thus this includes things such as Philosophy, English, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Japanese, etc. I am surprised to see so many feel they are capable of lumping all liberal arts majors in one group, and indeed all LACs in one group. The top LACs are known to be hunting grounds for top companies. What exactly is the advantage that a university/non-LAC grad has? Perhaps the engineering grad will make quite a bit more at first, but that will eventually plateau. In the end, anyone without plans for a higher degree that is racking up 40-50k a year is going to be in trouble, not just liberal arts majors.</p>

<p>FWIW, when I was deciding between UT-McCombs (a top business school) and Wesleyan, I looked at expected initial salaries. Even a Finance major at UT only averages 55k per year starting, whereas the average Wesleyan grad starts at around 50k per year. Is the advantage in business really so great?</p>

157

<p>
[quote]
FWIW, when I was deciding between UT-McCombs (a top business school) and Wesleyan, I looked at expected initial salaries. Even a Finance major at UT only averages 55k per year starting, whereas the average Wesleyan grad starts at around 50k per year. Is the advantage in business really so great?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Where did you find these stats?</p>

158

<p><a href="http://fcc.mccombs.utexas.edu/employers/bba06_salaries.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://fcc.mccombs.utexas.edu/employers/bba06_salaries.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Well, 55k was the figure I recalled seeing. McCombs is reporting ~47k on their official website now. Wesleyan Career Services doesn't make salary info available online but according to a survey the avg. salary for graduates with less than 1 year experience is around 40k, though I know when I was looking last year I found different (higher) numbers for both schools. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Wesleyan_University%2c_Connecticut/Salary/by_Years_Experience%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=Wesleyan_University%2c_Connecticut/Salary/by_Years_Experience&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There goes my credbility, but at the very least the difference is not as drastic as some make it out to be. One should also keep in mind that the average salary of Wesleyan grads is driven down by "softer" majors such as Psychology, Philosophy (my major ;)), English, etc. that happen to go straight to the workforce instead of on to a higher degree, whereas McCombs and other business schools have nothing of the sort dragging their average salary down.</p>

159

<p>My school has a smaller data set, but the future looks reasonably bright!</p>

160

<p>$38,904 is what I see. You have absolutely nothing to worry about. Do well in school, enjoy your time afterward, but do yourself a favor and get a higher degree. ;)</p>