What's worth paying up for?

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm not a parent, but I definitely fell into this sort of a decision. I actually didn't apply for our best state uni (UWash) because I knew a few people there and all of them were quite miserable. Its sad, because the school is pretty, but there's just so many people and I felt I would easily be lost in the shuffle. I ended up applying to two of the lower universities (Western Washington U and Central Washington U), one of which would have been 12k total and the other 6k total. Instead, I'm attending Reed for around 26k. </p>

<p>I actually still have a really hard time justifying this decision. One of my good friends comes from a family where everyone attends BYU and you can get four years of education for two people for less than one year at Reed full frieght. They're all successful, bright, amazing people (and my friend likes to point this out). While I wouldn't go to BYU as I'm not Mormon (although I recognize its an excellent choice for people who fit there) I often wonder if my being at Reed makes me greedy or spoiled. It hasn't been easy for my parents to pay for it, and its only been the first year. </p>

<p>On the other hand, I've been amazed by my opprotunities. My professors are all amazing, I'm in a small, close knit major (Classics), I've already been offered some amazing opprotunities (such as research) and I feel like I'm getting an excellent education. Then I wonder if I could do the same thing without straining my parents resources so much.</p>

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<p>These schools are members of the Council of Public Liberal Arts Colleges:</p>

<p>The following is a list of COPLAC member institutions linking to general information and contact data. Clicking an institution's logo will take you to the campus website. An asterisk (*) indicates membership in the National Student Exchange, an organization providing opportunities for students to study through exchange in the United States and Canada. </p>

<p>College of Charleston* Eastern Connecticut State University*
The Evergreen State College Fort Lewis College
Georgia College & State University Henderson State University
Keene State College* Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts
New College of Florida* Ramapo College of New Jersey*
Sonoma State University* Southern Oregon University*
St. Mary's College of Maryland* SUNY College at Geneseo
Truman State University University of Maine at Farmington*
University of Mary Washington University of Minnesota, Morris*
University of Montevallo University of North Carolina at Asheville*
University of Wisconsin-Superior</p>

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<p>Our D never even applied to our state flagship (Penn State), as a huge school had no interest for her. She did apply to two smaller out-of-state publics, however, and turned them down to go full pay to Smith. This was not an easy decision, as we had her assume some portion of the cost differential, and she struggled with her decision for weeks. </p>

<p>We are fortunate that we were able to handle the cost without taking out loans except for our D's Strafford loans. D also saved us considerably by doing her own independent and paid (employed) junior abroad experience, saving us considerably on tuition, R & B. </p>

<p>My theory is that kids are like flowers -- some of which will flourish in any soil, and some of which need more specific conditions. My H and I felt that our D is the "orchid" type -- needs a specific type of environment to bloom best. In an inhospitable environment she would be at risk of withering, we felt. She almost requires a sophisticated, stimulating environment with kindred types around her. I am not saying she could not find that at a state school, but that it would be more of a challenge for her to find her "niche" there. She also really wanted small, seminar-type classes from the first year on. Her school worked VERY well for her needs. The personal support she received from profs was a significant factor. </p>

<p>Our S, on the other hand, is an easy-going marigold type. He can be happy just about anywhere and with just about anyone, and he has a very different style. (She preferred a school without a football team, and he wants to be part of a marching band.) He is nowhere near as culturally adventurous as our D. (He won't even eat Chinese food, much less travel to China on his own for six months!) We are just beginning to explore options for him, but it will be a different experience.</p>

24

<p>i cant' believe UCD is ranked higher than UCI!</p>

25

<p>whitney
I dont know what your families financial circumstances are- but we found that Reed came through on their commitment to meet 100% of need. My daughter has roughly $13,000 in loans after graduation a few weeks ago.
I do think that the UW has some good programs in place like FIGs to help students find their way around, but I would also agree that Reed has opportunities, larger schools don't always have- although only you and your family can dcide if the money is worth it.
I expect families to pay a portion, just as I expect students to work during the school year and summers as well as take out small loans to contribute to their education.
As for BYU- it is indeed very very cheap- I believe one year including room and board, is less expensive than one year of instat tuition at UW- however, not all LDS famlies want their kids to attend a religious institution- My sister for example- has 5 kids- very good Mormons- but her two that are college age attended Colgate ( they are also low income)they have been pretty happy with Colgate even though the weather is a bt colder than Bellevue</p>

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<p>Whitneylm,
you shouldn't feel spoiled - be happy your parents can afford such a wonderful education and it sounds like you are making it worth their while</p>

27

<p>Jyber:</p>

<p>I remember your similes.<br>
It does depend on the kid as you put it so well; and it also depends on the schools that are being compared. If my kids wanted small, and the choice was between large state U and a LAC, I would try to go for the LAC (as I did). If, however, the choice was between expensive and large private and large state U, then I would have no problem turning down large, expensive private. </p>

<p>And there are large unis which are not highly ranked but have some very desirable features. Northeastern, which is a third tier uni (ranked lower than UMass-Amherst) has an excellent co-op program and great connections in the world of work, which is great for its students. The COA is twice what it would be at UMAss-Amherst.</p>

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<p>I am a graduate of a state flagship university. As I have said in another thread, a HUGE advantage for any learner is attending a school with lots of students who grew up in a different region. A very few state flagship schools offer substantial opportunities to meet lots of out-of-region students, but most do not, not even most of the state flagship schools with high national rankings. I would be willing to pay extra dollars to have my children attend a school where the majority of students come from a different region--that has educational value.</p>

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<p>Cami and Jyber, among others, summed up my feelings. Altho S could have gone to state U for free (U FL), & be in Honors program & housing, it didn't seem a good fit. An adjacent state U had a better program. His friend went there, and by 2nd year, had room & board paid for by his assistantship. Thus, no difference in cost. I kept the future in mind when encouraging S to attend a school without merit $$$
Many "match" schools came with merit. "Dream' schools (Caltech/MIT) didn't. However, he's had very good jobs since being at Caltech, and his summer internship can pay 1/3 of next year's tuition. I do not believe he would have so many opportunities at most places. So, yes, for a close-to-perfect-fit, it was definitely worth the $$$ to me and to S.</p>

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<p>Cami215 hit the nail on the head. It depends on finances and fit. In fact, some students who are accepted at flagship universities choose less well-known public colleges for the same reasons.</p>

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<p>'Northeastern, which is a third tier uni (ranked lower than UMass-Amherst) has an excellent co-op program and great connections in the world of work, which is great for its students. The COA is twice what it would be at UMAss-Amherst."</p>

<p>Agreed, but Northeastern is not a third tier school. It is tier II (Top Schools list). But you should take the rankings with a grain of salt because they do not provide an accurate picture of what is good school. Here's why:</p>

<p>The U.S. News methodology is flawed because it assumes that all colleges are following a traditional academic curriculum (i.e. comparing apples to apples). But Northeastern does things quite differently. It is one of only a handful of schools to have a fully integrated co-op program (i.e. it is an orange). For example, the way the current methodology works, the rankings make it appear as if Northeastern has a high student/faculty ratio. But this is only because U.S. News assumes that all students are on campus taking classes at the same time. This is far from the case; nearly half of the upper-class students are off campus interning at companies (unlike most schools, Northeastern students follow rotations where they alternate semesters of academics with semester long internships related to their major). Anyone who knows Northeastern knows that class sizes are actually on the small side (esp. upperclass courses). The amount of money spent per student and faculty resources rank also seem low in comparison to other schools in the top 60, but again this is only because U.S. News assumes that all students are on campus at the same time using resources. Students who are on co-op should be excluded because they do not pay tuition while they’re interning. Northeastern really has more money to spend on the students who are on campus taking classes. Again, anyone who has visited Northeastern recently knows that the school has plenty of money. All the facilities are new and the professors, administrators, etc. are earning top dollar (many of the profs received their PhDs from places like MIT, Harvard, Yale, Michigan, Wisconsin, and other top grad schools).</p>

<p>Another flaw in the U.S. News rankings methodology is the use of a six year graduation retention rate. Again, U.S. News assumes that all schools are following a traditional four year academic model. But again, Northeastern does things differently. A very large number of NEU students choose the five year co-op program (a four year program is available but for some reason it is less popular). Northeastern also offers a six year PharmD program. Obviously, Northeastern's graduation stats would be significantly higher if U.S. News factored this into the rankings. But they don't.</p>

<p>Northeastern's rating, although still top tier (under the new ranking system), simply does not add up. Still, even with its nontraditional curriculum, Northeastern has been climbing in the rankings. This is primarily because the university has made significant gains in selectivity. Northeastern should continue to rise as it becomes more nationally known. This year, the university received 6500 EA apps out of a total of 27,100 apps which is a new record. The admit rate this year was 44%. The university is also in the process of hiring 100 new star faculty. The new faculty will significantly lower the university's student/faculty ratio (this should make up for the shortfall in the rankings).</p>

<p>As a side note, the university administration has been lobbying U.S. News to make some changes to their rankings methodology so that it takes into account the university’s nontraditional academic curriculum. So who knows, Northeastern may finally get the credit that it deserves.</p>

<p>**As another side note, external research funding to Northeastern increased by a whopping 40% this year. The increase can be attributed to the ambitious faculty hiring plan. All these new star profs that the university has been hiring are bringing their research grants with them.</p>

<p>Northeastern is really a top 60 school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Here are the groundrules: please chime in if your state has a flagship public university in the top 50 of the US News top 100 National Unis. Do not debate the legitimacy of the rankings; for our purposes it is assumed that they are valid.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm playing by the ground rules laid down by the OP. You're not.</p>

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<p>My state does not have a top 50 Flagship State U, but there are only a couple of such state U's that have strong enough programs in DS's area of interest (music) for consideration. We will have to be looking out of state at more specific, and more expensive, programs. Unfortunately.</p>

34

<p>I have said before that I'm an unrecalcitrant snob. Neither of my kids (now at Reed and MIT) applied to UWash. Why not? Well, I've seen the product, so had they, and it wasn't what they wanted. Courses at UWash are huge initially and designed to weed students out, not to educate them in the fundamentals they will need later; not one of my son's friends who started in engineering is still in engineering. (I've taken 5 or 6 courses from UW as part of keeping my teaching credential; they're adequate but not exactly demanding of higher-level thinking, You could do quite well with memorization and a pretty basic set of writing skills.)</p>

<p>I think Western Washington University does a better job for less money, BTW.</p>

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<p>dmd
Both of your children attend colleges that are almost unique. MIT's atmosphere/focus can only be experienced at a few other places, and Reed is similarly selective. Students applying to those 2 schools will find themselves among true peers.
I think many colleges can be interchangeable. I don't mean exactly equal, but meeting the needs for interest, suburban/city, size, location, etc. Someone wanting the kind of education offered by Reed would have a smaller group to choose from, as well as the child wanting a math/tech school. I don't think its "snobby" to want to offer a child this kind of opportunity.</p>

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<p>Bookworm:</p>

<p>I feel the same about mid-sized research universities. There are not that many of them and they all seem to be expensive (though not interchangeable!).</p>

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<p>I knew I'd be taken to task for not thinking of a better word than "interchangeable".
Often the kids I knew would apply to Penn, Johns Hopkins, etc when they wanted premed, and were not worried about distance. Duke, Emory, Tulane, Vandy when wanted a good school but still in the Southern region. The only reason my S considered flying across the country was for one particular university. LACs would not have been appropriate for S's interests, no matter how his personality would have fitted in. Had I read CC before he applied, UChicago would have been on his short list.
Marite, had your special S2 not been accepted EA to his school of choice, he may have had to travel to find an appropriate U to satisfy his needs/wishes.
I wish I didn't have to work as hard as I am for next few years, but it is most definitely worth any personal sacrifices to give S this opportunity.</p>

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<p>Bookworm:</p>

<p>I did not mean to pick on "interchangeable." I was thinking of my S's list and the schools are so different: Chicago and Columbia on one end and Brown on the other in terms of curriculum; Stanford on one end of the weather spectrum, Cornell, Chicago, Harvard MIT on the other. And so on. In a way, though, it made it easy to sort them out according to preference, though he would have been happy at all those on his list.</p>

<p>Of course, he would have had to travel had he not ended up a 20 minutes' walk from home. But I think Chicago would have satisfied the (bad) weather requirement, the mid-sized research university requirement, the liberal arts school requirement, as well as the urban setting requirement. He was concerned about the Core curriculum imposing scheduling restrictions (though not about the Core per se). Not a bad list!</p>

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<p>Bookworm, while I agree with you that MIT and Reed are both unusual schools, it is precisely because I am a snob that I didn't say to my kids "but you can get a _____ degree at UWash"--as so many of my kids' friends' parents did. You CAN get a literature degree from UW; you can get an EE degree at UW. And for about 1/4 the cost, which adds up to saving lots more than the downpayment on a house these days. We talked about that when the kids applied to the schools they did, too. BUT in the end, snob that I am, I thought those unique experiences were more valuable than $$.</p>

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<p>dmd
I don't think it snobbish at all to want something special, especially for one's child. I think your S's engineering training while at MIT will not just be practical but theoretical. I think he will meet people who do inventions & start-up companies. I think he'll do problem sets with true peers. He will be challenged, and his reasoning skills stretched. Sure, at UWash your S could have been tops in his class and probably have just as fulfilling a future. But, your S was willing to live across the country to pursue his passion. He worked hard in school for years to achieve a goal--and your $$$ helps his path.</p>