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Statistics don't show that. For example at one top 10 school Val's are twice as likely (38%) as other students in the top 5% (19%) to gain admission (except sal's who are w/i 5% points of vals) . This is a far greater difference than applicants with SAT scores of 100 points different on a 1600 scale.</p>
<p>sdfsdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf</p>
<p>Some colleges are crazy for vals, that is true.</p>
<p>SS, I have yet to see a school who releases that info to show that val/sal is un-important . Now, admittedly not that many schools give that info up as easily as UPenn (the stats cited above) .</p>
<p>I wouldn't dispute that in the case of a limited number of highly selective schools the chances of a val being admitted over a sal or #4 of 400 might be statistically better, but I'll stand by my statement that in the grand scheme of things it is not worth stressing over.</p>
<p>Around here it is done by weighted GPA at the end of senior year. Seniors do not have to take finals in a subject if they have an A average in that subject for the rest of the year. Val and Sal candidates almost always meet this requirement for all of their classes, so the results are known at least a week ahead of graduation. That gives them plenty of time to work on speeches. </p>
<p>There has been some gamesmanship involving medical excuses to get out of gym. Since gym does not carry honors or AP weighting, the student can then take an extra honors class in freshman year and extra AP classes in sophomore through senior years to maximize their overall GPA. This provided the difference between Val and Sal a few years back when both had scored straight A's in everything and Sal had taken the hardest possible course load without the gym exclusion. Sal's parents were more than a bit annoyed.</p>
<p>Bassdad, at least the games you are talking about involve a student taking MORE challenging courses. I gotta respect that. It sucks when someone gets the val/sal designation who has avoided certain classes and teachers to bump their GPA. </p>
<p>Alas, what they should do is take out stuff like PE from GPA completely- it's not academic in the least, and val/sal status is supposed to be an academic honor.</p>
<p>Including classes like PE and weighlifting in academic awards criteria is like including GPA in the MVP selections for sports.</p>
<p>hv, we'll agree to disagree. It happens a lot. ;) But IMO if it means something to the top schools, it will mean something to scholarship committees at those schools that grant merit scholarships. No matter what tier they are in. </p>
<p>It is a difficult task to be highly ranked . I would never suggest a kid forego better/tougher/more exciting coursework to game the system , or seek out the easy grading teachers, but trying your hardest in class to achieve substantially better standing with admissions and scholarship committees? You betcha. </p>
<p>BTW . Both my D and her #2 took courses that have never been taken before at their school - college sophomore English and Calc 3 although they were not given extra weighting (beyond other advanced courses) . They didn't want it any other way.</p>
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<p>D's school only includes academic courses in their computation. Val and Sal are based on weighted scores.</p>
<p>Cur, bravo to your school.</p>
<p>Ours uses weighted GPA through 1st semester senior year, and and only uses a certain number of semesters (I think 5 plus or minus) to eliminate some of the 9th grade junk (fitness, life skills) from taking on too much importance.</p>
<p>Our school offers a whole bunch of APs- like 20 or so. And a couple students have gone through them and on to some "post" APs, like your daughter did.
This year our val is an outstanding student with a very challenging courseload. Our sal, not. Oh well, can't have everything.</p>
<p>My youngest had an ungodly GPA (high) at the end of 9th grade and into 10th. Much to his consternation, I told him he obviously needed to beef up his curriculum to include more hard core classes, which he did and his GPA fell. But he still did very well in the long run even tho he didn't quite make the cut! </p>
<p>(Oh well, he ended up hitting an out of the park homer in the regional baseball tourney and finished out with less than 2 ERA, went head to head in regionals pitching against a guy whose going on to pitch for a top 5 D1 baseball team, and we won 2 to 1) Sorry, had to do a shameless plug for my darling.</p>
<p><a href="Oh%20well,%20he%20ended%20up%20hitting%20an%20out%20of%20the%20park%20homer%20in%20the%20regional%20baseball%20tourney%20and%20finished%20out%20with%20less%20than%202%20ERA,%20went%20head%20to%20head%20in%20regionals%20pitching%20against%20a%20guy%20whose%20going%20on%20to%20pitch%20for%20a%20top%205%20D1%20baseball%20team,%20and%20we%20won%202%20to%201">quote=doubleplay</a> Sorry, had to do a shameless plug for my darling.
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<p>LOL. Now we are talking!! Don't you love it when our destined to be walk-ons kick D1 butt?</p>
<p>As to the bravo for D's school - there are plenty of things they did wrong (20 AP's? I think D had 4. They preferred dual credit courses. ). Pick your poison.</p>
<p>One thing- </p>
<p>as mentioned by SS</p>
<p>As it turns out, very few girls applied. Why? In this very wealthy school population, it's kind of understood that the wealthy kids don't put in for the scholarships. Noblesse oblige, I guess. And I think that's a good thing. </p>
<p>Our school wasn't wealthy but the top two kids didn't submit the local common scholarship app as both had great institutional scholarships. I have to think that is standard operating procedure.</p>
<p>Re: 20 AP classes- Our school wanted to avoid the kids' leaving campus to go to the local CC for dual enrollment, so every year they kept adding more and more AP classes. Of course, this includes all the foreign language, computer science, music, arts, and soft sciences (psych, environ). I'm amazed at some of these kids who are taking the high maths and computer classes in JR HIGH and running out of stuff by the time they are juniors! One kid I know is past AP Calc and is doing differential calc (I think, is that the same as calc 3?) as a Junior. Brilliant, amazing kids. Thank goodness for Senior Year thesis for those students!</p>
<p>Re: Walk on baseball- I wish! He's heard too many stories about 5 AM conditioning, then class, then afternoon practice, then study hall, then scrimmage. Is there room for a studious, academically motivated, but somewhat lazy (when it comes to spending half a life on the ball field) pitcher? hmmm.</p>
<p>I'm gonna miss baseball (sniff). I'm gonna be one of those hangers-on lurking around the high school ball field next spring.</p>
<p>I'm gonna miss baseball (sniff). I'm gonna be one of those hangers-on lurking around the high school ball field next spring.</p>
<p>Hey. I did it. I figure I've got a couple of years before they arrest this middle age male at the girl's high school game. :eek: At least until her last teammate graduates. ;)</p>
<p>Cur: Both of you could be right about the "val factor". I don't think it means anything when it's decided by a basis point or two. But there are at least two other common situations: (1) One kid is head and shoulders above everyone else, and everyone knows it. That kid has a better chance of admission everywhere, and will coincidentally also often be the valedictorian. That was the case in my daughter's class -- a huge gap between #1 and #2, but ##2-7 depended on partial credit on answers on the last physics final. (2) Those schools with 50 valedictorians. There, if you don't have the label, you're just not in the top group academically.</p>
<p>Then there's the case in my son's class, where there is a clear val with a point or two of breathing room, but he just isn't the most impressive student. He did fine, but the big winner in the admissions game was the midyear #5 (to no one's surprise).</p>
<p>At my D's school, Val and Sal are decided after all the final grades are in - so right before graduation. This year has seen a sudden burst of competition for these spots - the student who's been sal for the past 2 years has a full tuition scholarship (possibly a full ride?) hanging on graduating in the top 2 - and her parents are holding their breath. Last year she'd have been fine, but this year some kids have taken AP's on line which is a new dynamic that's had quite an effect on the ranks and was seen by some as bit of an ambush strategy (since not everyone knew about the option or could afford it). I think it's a good thing that some of the kids are taking harder classes but at times I wish the communication had been clearer up front so all the kids were aware of that option and the possible consequences of their choices. Some of the ranks have changed markedly I've heard. The amount of money hanging in the balance turns this into rather a big deal for at least one of the contenders!</p>
<p>
<p> [quote] The amount of money hanging in the balance turns this into rather a big deal for at least one of the contenders!
And it often is.</p>
<p>Dd's school waits until final exams results are in -right down to the wire. Since grades are both weighted AND on a percentage basis, there's never been a tie that I'm aware of. It gets a little scary for the 2# - 4# spot, as they have to write the speech and wonder if they will be delivering it!
In regards to scholarships: my Dd didn't apply for any local scholarships, figuring they would better serve the other students, as she had already been provided a financial aid package w/merit aid, and any scholarships she would have earned would just have reduced her grants.</p>
<p>I thought I'd heard it all until we met with GC this morning. D. is doing a semester program half of her junior year and is a contender to "platform" - be chosen Val, Sal or Essayist (3rd place). Our rules are such that a student who is not physically present in the hs jr. and sr. year is ineligible - even if (s)he's attended the district since kindergarten. There's no "6 out of 8 semesters" or other rule that would allow any student to do an exchange program, or even if they missed a semester for health reasons. </p>
<p>We realize she's giving up that opportunity to take what we consider a better one. After all, they get to make the rules and we can read them. My question to GC today was "if D has the highest GPA, she will still be ranked #1 and you could write that into her college recs, right?" I was told no. The principal would put D at #4 for class rank, regardless of where she falls numerically. Parsing the language, I then asked if GC could write "D had the highest GPA in her graduating class" and GC said she could say that. (This is all theoretical at this point, but we are headed that way.) The more I hear about how Val is chosen at our school, the less impressed I am. I wish I didn't know - it was so much nicer when S, who wasn't near the tippy-top, went through (in that respect, at least.)</p>
<p>Our H.S. makes the determination at the end of first semester senior year. They also determine ALL honors then which is stupid. My D missed honor grad by .03 and had it by the time final grades were in....others who had it at the end of first semester sr. year dropped well below due to senioritis. Rewards slackers. Besides after graduation, it means nothing. It all starts over.</p>