<p>My DS is a junior and has been looking at schools and would like to go to one these pretty highly ranked private schools (UChicago, Northwestern, UPenn, Brown, Georgetown, etc). He has decent grades and very good SAT (I&II)scores and has done very well in debate all through high school (multiple appearances in ToC, NFL nationals, many country wide tournaments, etc - won local tournaments, no national championship). His teachers like him a lot and will probably write very good recommendations. His high school class rank is the issue..he is probably in the top 50% (school does not rank kids). He is <em>extremely</em> motivated to do well in what he wants, i.e. debate, soccer etc and has results to prove it. We met with a college counselor and he said that in order to get into these kinds of schools you will need to be in the top 10% or better in your class. His point was that the extra-curriculars are "extra" and ad-coms will value GPA more than anything else. The mentioned that unless you are national champion of some sort, the value of success in debate does not translate into admissions very well. </p>
<p>Even after this, DS does not seem to want to "work for a better grade"..he dives deep into debate research and as far as I can see he is doing some real learning of weighty issues. I admire his resilience in sticking to doing what he loves, but it would be a shame see his real learning and motivation not translated into college admission success. Are there schools that place higher value ECs (especially debate) more than others? Are personal essays the only avenue to express these qualities?</p>
<p>Well…if your son won an Olympic gold medal, his EC might trump his grades. </p>
<p>There will be a place on the application for any awards. If your son has national recognition awards as a debater, that might get him a look see. </p>
<p>What is his GPA? What kinds of colleges is HE interested in attending? Even with a perfect SAT score…he is going to look like an under achiever if his grades aren’t at least in the ballpark to match his SAT scores. </p>
<p>There are many really outstanding students applying to U Chicago, Brown, Northwestern, and Georgetown who have both excellent standardized test scores and excellent grades. Still, the VAST majority of those applicants do NOT get accepted to those colleges. Most who apply are not accepted, and in those not accepted are some very strong applicants.</p>
<p>Certainly, your son can apply to these schools, but he also needs some schools that more match his academic profile, as well as some which are slam dunks in terms of admissions. In other words, he needs a better variety of competitiveness in the schools to which he applies. </p>
<p>I will tell you, in CT, my state, a student ranked 50%ile in their class would not be guaranteed admission to UConn, our state flagship…as an instate resident.</p>
<p>The college counselor is right–unfortunately, most adcoms use a grades/scores rubric as an initial screen for the flood of applications they receive, and your son’s extracurricular involvement won’t be looked at if his application doesn’t make it past an initial screen. Moreover, the fact that his grades are (relatively) low may make adcoms worry that he might not be academically successful on campus because he will be so involved in everything else that is available to him.</p>
<p>Are any of his extracurricular achievements of sufficient quality that a college coach might be interested in him? That might be a way to get a school he likes to actually LOOK at his application.</p>
<p>Thanks for quick responses…some more details here:
His weighted GPA is ~3.9 so far. SAT I: 2290; SAT-II (800-M-level2; 780-Chem, will take History ); He took 3-AP classes as sophomore (4,5,5), 3 more this year, signed up for 4 more in Senior; He is interested in studying Econ/Business/Intl-Relations in college.His course work is inline with his interests (AP-Econ, AP-World, AP-USH,AP-Calc, AP-Stats(next yr), AP-Gov (next yr), etc). I think his course rigor is tough, but I am not sure it the hardest in his school…some kids load up on even more AP’s!!</p>
<p>The best way for a kid like yours to find an optimal match is to figure out which schools are going to want him just as he is- great debater, good student, etc. If he can or wants to stretch himself for better grades that’s on him- but to start out the college process feeling frustrated that the “right” college for him is out of reach due to his class rank to me, sends a negative and unnecessary message.</p>
<p>If your school has Naviance, take a look at the data which will show where kids “like him” get admitted. Debate will only help him in borderline cases. But if a kid with his stats is never or rarely admitted to one of the schools he’d like to attend, guess what- there are thousands of colleges which would love to have him.</p>
<p>To me this is a “why fight city hall” type of situation. He will be an attractive candidate to dozens of schools-- and once he gets excited about those options, half the battle is won. Then he can throw in a judicious application or two to a “not likely but maybe” kind of place in the hopes that debate lights their fire. Good outcome.</p>
<p>He has a weighted 3.9 GPA and is at the 50%ile of his class? Wow! Either they are all really smart or there is some grade inflation at the school.</p>
<p>That GPA isn’t awful. It’s respectable. It’s the class rank that isn’t.</p>
<p>The school does not rank (numerical or deciles)…they only report average gpa for the last 3 years and it is ~3.9. and the counselor interpreted the mean to be close to the median based on experience. We were shocked as well because we thought he had decent grades and were generally happy with academic pursuits because of how he engaged in learning through open-ended research for debate. We knew he was not at the top of his classes (gpa wise) but did expect him to be <strong>parent pride on</strong> “just average” <strong>parent pride off</strong>.</p>
<p>I like blossom’s advice and will try to approach this process with some sanity…still hurts though.</p>
<p>A weighted GPA of 3.9 does not really give useful information to someone not familiar with the high school weighting system. What is his unweighted GPA?</p>
<p>It does, however, look like he learned the material tested by SAT subject and AP tests, which is a good sign.</p>
<p>Ok…more clarifications- unweighted gpa is ~3.5. School grades on a 4.0 scale (A+:4.3, A:4, A-:3.7; +0.5 for AP/Honors). So if all classes are AP and you get an A+ in all you get 4.8 gpa and you walk on water :-)</p>
<p>The 3.5 unweighted GPA likely makes it very hard to get into super-selective colleges. Admission to such colleges likely needs all of:</p>
<ul>
<li>High GPA (probably 3.8+ unweighted at least) in hard courses. Exception may be if the high school is known to grade low (not the case if half of the class has >3.5 unweighted GPA).</li>
<li>High test scores (like your son’s or better).</li>
<li>High achievement or award in something (e.g. state or national level achievement in an extracurricular; other examples include A grades in numerous advanced college courses while in high school, or overcoming a very disadvantaged background (e.g. very poor single parent family)).</li>
</ul>
<p>This excludes special categories like athletes good enough to be recruited and the like.</p>
<p>Once one gets less selective than the super-selective schools, the courses and grades (or rank) tend to be the biggest factors. Test scores are usually equal or slightly lesser weighted, while all other factors like extracurriculars tend to be lesser weighted than the academic measures. Colleges do vary, so there are exceptions; see their admissions information at <a href=“http://www.collegedata.com”>http://www.collegedata.com</a> for admissions criteria and rough weighting.</p>
<p>My younger son had similar grades when you took orchestra out of his course list, but he had the huge advantage that his school did report rank (it was 6%) and it was based on weighted grades and included the orchestra courses he got A+s in. He did not get into Georgetown or Brown, but did get into U of Chicago early. My advice would be that he should keep one or two of the superduper reaches on his list, especially if they have EA, but he should do some research as to which ones might give him a little more leeway on his grades. I think my son was enormously helped by engaging essays for Chicago’s quirky essay and Why Chicago question as well as very enthusiastic teacher recommendations. I think he made a good case for himself as a diamond in the rough.</p>
<p>But I do agree with Blossom, his GC probably as a pretty good notion of what kids like him can expect from admissions officers. Without a national level of success in an EC or being a recruited athlete the superselective schools are unlikely to choose him.</p>
<p>The good news is that he sounds like a great kid. There are hundreds of great colleges that would be thrilled to have him. Check out some of the B+ threads here on CC.</p>
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