<p>If an A+ is a 4.3, the school does not have a scale of 4.0. His unweighted GPA is 3.5 on a scale of 4.3. </p>
<p>ucbalumnus - thanks for the summary, you sound like the counselor we spoke to:-)</p>
<p>As we get used to reality, it bothers me that there is so much lip service paid to “do what you love”, “follow your passion” and so on but when the time comes these colleges are not really that holistic after all. The frustration I see in my son (and we share some of it) is that there are kids who dabble in a lot of ECs for the sake of college admissions and can trump it up while they really spent time focusing on grades. While good grades is always good and I don’t want to take anything away, it seems harsh to shut out someone who followed their passion and shown motivation and real learning in an unstructured environment.</p>
<p>Philosophy talk aside, I am looking at cc community to help me with some actionable strategy that we can use as we get into the process in the next few months.</p>
<p>The problem is that quite a few kids can follow their passions, and get fabulous grades as well. </p>
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<h1>1: Determine your cost constraints, and communicate them clearly to your son, so that he can make a financially reasonable application list. You may see some recent posts by parents and students facing dilemmas of admission to colleges that are financial stretches, where the parents (perhaps unintentionally) led the students to believe that they would contribute more than they are comfortable contributing. Make sure that your son knows the limits before making the application list. If need-based financial aid is likely, you can let him know enough about your family finances to run net price calculators on college web sites, or (if you do not want to tell him that much) run the net price calculator on each proposed college to tell him if he just needs admission, or needs to get a merit scholarship to bring the net price down to the limit.</h1>
<h1>2: Have him start his application list with a safety that he will certainly be admitted to, certainly be able to afford, and will want to attend. You don’t want to be back here next year posting “got in no where, what to do?” or “only got into safety school, gap year?”.</h1>
<p>GPA and test scores have always been the primary admissions criteria. When they say “follow your passions…”, I don’t think anyone ever expected it to be interpreted as “…at the expense of your grades.” These are the top colleges in the US and they expect you to be good at everything.</p>
<p>I think the best strategy is to make a good list of reach, match, safeties become more informed about the truly great options out there where he will really fit and that will give him what he needs and he has a better chance. Sure pick a couple of reaches. As said above, so many great students get turned away from these schools it is silly to take it personally. I also recommend writing a very good essay, it may be one of the only things in your control at this point. Also pay attention to the short answers, I find a lot of kids give short shrift to those.</p>
<p>Here is a good post to read, where the kid spent all the time working on ‘reaches for everyone’ and not enough time realizing what his actual options might be. But he had a good list and so good options in the end:
<a href=“My college application results and final decision - #4 by jkeil911 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums”>My college application results and final decision - #4 by jkeil911 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums;
<p>BrownParent - My point is that we did not think that our son pursing his passions at the “expense of grades”…we thought a few A’s, few B’s seemed OK because he was academically engaged. We did not realize that his class rank (and it is still a hypothesis) was this “bad” until now. The school saw no need to inform us that he was not “doing well” and in fact it was quite the opposite - his teachers thought (and still think) he is intellectually very curious and have given numerous compliments and “love of learning” awards (they do this instead of ranking kids at the end of every school year). We are in a very competitive area, we just did not realize the extent of competition…</p>
<p>I agree with making the safety list…that’s the number one task this summer. The state schools here (in california) are largely numerical and the flagship schools are not a safety by any means. Fortunately, we are financially better prepared so we have options.</p>
<p>OP- it’s on you to help your son see that there are super-duper “learning for the sake of learning”, passionate about public affairs or international relations types of kids at all kinds of colleges which may not be on his radar screen. Tufts, American, Haverford, Rice, GW, Brandeis come to mind immediately (none are safeties, but probably less “reachy” than Brown or Chicago if your son’s HS is like the one’s I’m familiar with). Agree with the advice above that clarifying your financial limitations is the absolute first step. Don’t let him fall in love with a place you can’t afford. Then- look at the Naviance data from your school. It’s terrific if your son ends up with a list of places that nobody from his school has ever applied to, but there’s no use in deciding that Carnegie Mellon is a great fit only to see that nobody with stats like your son has been admitted to Carnegie Mellon in the last three years. (you should add CMU to your list of places to explore however).</p>
<p>If your son is interested in big (huge) state U’s you are lucky (assuming you can afford out of state.) He for sure will find his “peeps” at U Maryland or Rutgers (great poli sci places). If he wants smaller, then a place like Rhodes or Earlham, Lawrence, Skidmore, Muhlenberg?</p>
<p>If what he’s after is intellectual intensity and debate, political engagement, etc. I think you can come up with a great list of fantastic options (once you’ve figured out your financial parameters). Any of the once-Quaker affiliated schools and many of the Catholic schools (but not all- some are just rah rah preppy) will have a core group of students who are brainy and politically active.</p>
<p>Your son sounds fantastic. Work to help him find the right fit without worrying about the name brand and he’ll be a happy camper a year from now!</p>
<p>Your son likely would not want the high pressure schools if he thinks it is more important to do an EC than spend more time to get better grades. So- he gets into one of the very elite schools where most students have better grades with similar/better test scores, plus equal or more impressive ECs. Will his knowledge base and study skills allow him to keep up with these students? He sounds like he may be more laid back about academics and would be better off at a school where he can study hard enough to learn a lot but will also have time to pursue his other interests. He probably should apply to one or a very few of these reach schools but only those HE is interested in. He needs to apply to schools where he will need to stretch himself but only at an intesnity level he finds comfortable.</p>
<p>Remember, we parents want our kids to get into the “best”, “top” schools. But our kids have different ideas. It is your son’s life. Be prepared for him to not want what you want. He has already shown you he does what HE wants to (debate), not what gets him all A’s.</p>
<p>At holistic highly selective colleges, aside from a few extreme hooks, it’s not a black and white choice of getting in based on grades or getting in based on ECs. Instead both academic and non-academic criteria having a noteworthy influence, and if one is extremely impressive, it allows an applicant to be less impressive in the other. In another thread, a poster linked to a reach/match/safety selection related presentation from someone with a princeton.edu email at <a href=“http://phs.princetonk12.org/guidance/Forms/Betterton%20College%20Planning.pdf”>http://phs.princetonk12.org/guidance/Forms/Betterton%20College%20Planning.pdf</a> . In the document, he proposes an interesting way of combining academic and non-acdemic factors to predict reach/match/safety. Academic factors are given a 1-8 rating with 8 = A+, 7=A, 6=A-, …; non-academic factors are given a 1-8 rating with 8 = national, 7 = state, 6 = county, …; then the two are summed. He suggests a sum of 12-13 for the schools the OP mentioned and a sum of 14 for HYPSM. The latter would be an applicant with perfect stats and non-academic accomplishments that are impressive on a county level, or an applicant with a 3.7 UW GPA and non-academic accomplishments that are impressive on a national level. I don’t agree with all of this content, but this methodology works quite well at predicting acceptance/rejection decisions for posters in the Stanford RD thread, when I analyzed it last year. </p>
<p>I have a somehow gifted kid with a passion but the GPA just is not happening. I learned to see what truly matters. His passion and his qualities are not going away just because he will not go to a top or elite school. There will still be there to help him succeed in whatever college he lands and more importantly later in his professional life. So, as you say if your son developed an exceptional way engaging in learning through open-ended research that quality will serve him very well in life. The reward might not be in the college admission but rather later in his chosen profession.
My son is keeping only one “elite” school (not an ivy) in his list and that is a school related to his EC and according to Naviance he has a good chance. </p>
<p>Wow—your school gives an A+? </p>
<p>There would be a lot of schools interested in your son, but maybe not the ones
that are basically lottery schools. What kind of environment is he looking for?</p>
<p>A good strategy for him might be to look at some schools that are somewhat heavily female–sometimes male applicants get a little bit of extra consideration.</p>
<p>Of course, colleges may recalculate GPAs. For example, UCs and CSUs recalculate in a specific way (only a-g courses, no 9th grade grades, no +/-, up to 8 semesters’ worth of honors or AP courses get +1). I.e. the GPA printed on the high school transcript may not be considered by many colleges.</p>
<p>@calipapa
Your son sounds like a great kid. There are many colleges that would want him, and he would get a great education at these colleges. You just have to remember that at the top 20 schools, there are TENS of THOUSANDS of kids with > 3.9 unwtd GPAs jostling for admission. They may have acquired their 3.9 as a grinder with little ECs, or they may have acquired their 3.9 by basically doing hardly any work because they are very smart and are doing ECs at a very high achieving level. But as other’s have said, these applicants will have 3.9+, 2300+, 35+ scores AND amazing ECs; not solely amazing ECs at the expense of GPA. </p>
<p>And, of course, your school’s Naviance will tell you where the kids from your school got accepted with similar stats as your son in the previous years of their college admissions. Your son can also ask his GC his approximate class rank to get a sense of where he falls within the class, rather than trying to extrapolate from your HS profile. </p>
<p>There are some great threads here on cc about kids in the 3.3-3.6 GPA range…where they got accepted to college, etc. It’s great for learning about other colleges in the country where kids from your HS may not have applied before.
<a href=“Where did your 3.3-3.6 GPA child get in? - Parents Forum - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/767486-where-did-your-3-3-3-6-gpa-child-get-in-p1.html</a></p>
<p>Also, if you look on cc in the ivy league threads for admissions decisions, you will be able to see the rejection posts from the hordes amazing kids with 3.9+, 2300+, 35+ AND a ton of ECs. </p>
<p>Lastly, if he is a good enough soccer player to get recruited, then that might be his ticket into a really top school. (Do they do “recruiting” for college debate teams? you could look into that as well.)</p>
<p>Here is a summary of Berkeley decisions that were reported on the Berkeley forum section:
<a href=“Berkeley Frosh Class of 2018 decision summary - #7 by ucbalumnus - University of California - Berkeley - College Confidential Forums”>Berkeley Frosh Class of 2018 decision summary - #7 by ucbalumnus - University of California - Berkeley - College Confidential Forums;
<p>Lots of good advice here. Your son sounds like a great kid with a lot of potential. He is passionate and self motivated, what he will need for life if not college admissions. </p>
<p>Can you afford private? OOS public? I agree it sounds like those are the places to look. Is he a NMS? </p>
<p>Thanks for many perspectives and good advice.
@ucbalumus - the UCB accept list you have compiled is interesting and eye-opening
@YoHoYoHo - I like the pointer to the thread about colleges for B+ kids
@Data10 - Your pointer to the presentation is very interesting…gives some hope</p>
<p>My takeaway so far:
- There are plenty of good colleges…we need to find a B+ college with well rounded atmosphere for my B+ student with passion for ECs. Taking numerical ranking of colleges in isolation is just as meaningful numerical ranking of kids in isolation.
- I still think we did the “right” thing by letting our son pursue his ECs with passion - the skills he is honing will serve him good regardless of the college he attends.</p>
<p>Tactically speaking:
- Start with a good safety list
- Look at good colleges that have hard time attracting “top” kids - examples like Brandeis etc are good
- Look at some good EA/ED options
- Talk to GC and find out where kids like him go</p>
<p>Busy summer ahead…thanks again!</p>
<p>Debate can be good, but you have to be the best for most schools to take notice. My friend’s son was a national debate champion a few years ago which helped his admission to Yale. That level of debate success did not come easily and required international coaching!</p>
<p>You should listen carefully to the GC advice as they know the realistic expectations from your son’s school given his GPA.</p>
<p>
I agree whole-heartedly. An engaged student with drive is a joy to see. I always tell my S to have fun at school and I mean it.</p>
<p>Try Claremont-McKenna. Your son’s statistics are within their range, and they place a substantial premium on “leadership” activities. They have a very active debating program. My son applied there as a “reach” school - he was rejected, but his numbers were lower than your son’s. His school did not rank or weight GPAs, but his unweighted GPA was <3.4, and his SAT/ACT scores were 2060/31. If he is interested in other West Coast colleges, he could consider Whitman. I think it would be a low-match for him, because my son got in with a $7500 merit scholarship. They have an active debating team, also. I make those suggestions simply because it sounds as if your son attends a very competitive high school. If his GPA only places him in the middle of the pack academically, then he should probably shop around for top-notch colleges that many of his classmates are overlooking. </p>
<p>He should look at Bates. Excellent debate team and not as selective as the schools you listed in the OP, but a great school nonetheless. </p>
<p><a href=“Bates debate ranks fifth in nation, including key win at Yale Inter-Varsity Tournament | News | Bates College”>http://www.bates.edu/news/2013/10/31/bates-debate-rank-fifth-nation/</a></p>