<p>Dr. King's dream of a society in which our children would be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin seems as elusive as ever.
Affirmative action was originally proposed as a temporary step on the road to a color blind society? It has now endured for over thirty years. Fair enough, perhaps more time is needed to remedy hundreds of years of slavery and discrimination. The problem lies not with AA but with the shift in its justification to the new ideal, the goal of diversity.
"Diversity" has become a downward spiral that has implications far outside of the area of AA. On the basis of promoting "diversity", colleges apply different standards for different races across the board. We are approaching the point where each and every skin color will have its own unique set of standards. The obvious losers are the asians but aren't we all losers to live in a society that has abandoned Dr. King's dream? American universities seem unwilling to judge the content of a child's character without reference to the color of his skin.</p>
<p>Asians are the losers? No freakin' way. Asians are like 4.2% of the entire population of the U.S.A, and yet there are, proportionally, far more Asians than there are other ethnic groups represented in universities/colleges. </p>
<p>I agree about Martin Luther's dream not coming true, but I think this diversity thing will not last forever.</p>
<p>There could've been more Asians in universities/colleges had it not been for Affirmative Action...supposedly.</p>
<p>California doesn't have the idiocy. Hail the almighty Terminatour!</p>
<p>Personally, I think affirmative action is racist, satirical, and hysterical attempt to kill education by granting it to those who have not earned it while covered by good motives. However, I do respect US for keeping all it's diverse nationalities from fighting with each other all the times. AA is merely a bug, not a completely falldown of the US as multicultural country.</p>
<p>I've had long conversations with admissions personnel over the years on this very topic. Here's an imperfect and generalized summary of the way they tend to see the world that is different from the way applicants and parents of applicants might see it.</p>
<p>To them, a university is a mini-society and community of the mind. When filling entering slots (assuming it's a selective school), they need more than scholars. They need athletes, musicians, singers, dancers, actors, graphic artists, debaters, politicos, and just about every other skill imaginable. They also want people who bring different backgrounds and world views. A mix of rural, region, socio-economic status, nationality, religion, and what have you is considered the most desirable student body because, theoretically, this sort of mix should enliven classroom discussion and scholarly work.</p>
<p>Race is more problematic, but race is strongly tied to two life experiences: negative prejudice and culture. Someone who has experienced an American sub-culture and prejudicial treatment brings a perspective that someone who hasn't experienced that cannot bring.</p>
<p>The super-elite schools can easily fill their entering classes three times over with absolutely extraordinary applicants, and maybe as many as 10 - 15 times over with qualified applicants. They have to make decisions some way, and academic accomplishment is still, and will always be, the primary driver.</p>
<p>Having said that, I've been told that the seeming prejudice against Asians isn't what it looks like; that is, that it's not as if it's common to say "Oh, we have too many Asians. We'll have to turn this one down." More than one admissions officer has told me that Asians have a higher tendency to be accompanied by recs that say something like, "is very quiet in class." Admissions officers want hard-working students, and they want some quiet ones, but they don't want a preponderance of silent people in a small classroom that depends on avid discussion. I have been told that the best thing that can happen for an Asian is to have a strong academic record and a rec that says he/she is a strong contributor to class discussion.</p>
<p>...
stereotype</p>
<p>asians are found to have the same ecs and i tend to be much louder in class than my white peers, well that's not a good thing.</p>
<p>Don't use Martin Luther King as an authority to be against anti-affirmative action. He supported affirmative action, which was first adopted by President Johnson.</p>
<p>I'm not making a statement about affirmative action itself, just pointing out that Dr. King is the wrong person to use to support your position. Coretta Scott King said the same thing many times.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We are approaching the point where each and every skin color will have its own unique set of standards.
[/quote]
Hmm, biracial people would pose a problem, wouldn't they? Being albino would also be problematic, I suppose. The racist admissions officers will undoubtedly find ways around such pesky problems, though. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>haha - actually I recently saw a stat that showed asians getting higher test scores than caucasians. As the white scores moved up, the asian scores moved up as well... </p>
<p>Sorry for not adding content to the discourse.</p>
<p>For 500 years the word "racism" has meant discrimination for the purpose of keeping a race "down." Slavery was keeping black people down, Jim Crow was keeping black people down. Laws prohibiting immigration from China (especially laws prohibiting women from immigrating) were meant to keep Asians down.</p>
<p>Affirmative Action has no such purpose and therefore it is really quite absurd to call it "racist" and does nothing more than trivialize the hundreds of years of oppression in this country.</p>
<p>People should stop whining when they don't always get their way. Don't you love how white people get all these chips thrown their way, and then the moment one gets thrown the other way, all of a sudden its time to scream bloody murder?</p>
<p>AA keeps asians down...</p>
<p>Probably because asians are a minority, a very small one. We have no real voting power, but of course, the second I hit 18, I will vote against AA (assuming that the anti-AA candidate isn't too evil).</p>
<p>The Chinese built the railroad and were historically treated like crap in all of America. Most of our experiences are far harder than the "effects of slavery" on modern African Americans. </p>
<p>Just 30 years ago, my parents were forced into virtual slavery in some random farm to "learn the ways of the common folk" since they were supposedly of bourgeois descent (my great great grandfather owned land). </p>
<p>After managing to enter an university after Mao's death in 76, my dad were recruited by a western university in 79. My mom used to work minimum wage at McDonalds until my dad managed to find a job that paid a living wage (postgrad pay was terribly low in Rochester back then). </p>
<p>A friend of mine, his dad used to work at 7-11 in downtown Toronto for a similarly low wage and was robbed twice on the job by individuals who suffer from the "stigma of slavery", and yet we are discriminated as mindless study machines with "all the breaks" while our african and white counterparts have reaped the luxuries of america. </p>
<p>So what if race is not the only factor? Nonetheless, it is a factor that is unfair to Chinese. It is a false diversity based on skin color. So far, most of the blacks in the Ivy league are from elite backgrounds, rather than truly poor black Americans. Of course, once in a while, they will admit a poster boy or girl. </p>
<p>I seriously doubt the "stigma of slavery" is that severe in comparison to what most Chinese have experienced.</p>
<p>I will definitely do something about this in the future.</p>
<p>I am hardly trying to diminish the realities of discrimination against Asian-Americans in this country. It is very prevelent everywhere (including in this thread... see Tarhunt's post). </p>
<p>But there is a difference between discrimination against a race, and keeping that race down. Affirmative Action doesn't keep Asian-Americans down because Asian-Americans are still succeeding and getting into college in higher rates than everyone else!</p>
<p>So does it discriminate against Asians and Whites? Yes, yes it does. Is it racism? No, no it is not.</p>
<p>To those of you opposed to admissions processes that favor racially diverse student bodies:</p>
<p>Why, exactly, are you opposed to them? Is it because you think students with the highest SAT scores deserve all the spots? If so, does that mean you think scores are the only thing that matters?</p>
<p>If that is not the reason, what is it? Do you not like sharing your classroom with students of other races?</p>
<p>Do you think your education will be just as valuable if everyone in your school is the same race as your own? If so, do you think spending time with students of other races is a waste of time?</p>
<p>I'm just trying to get the root of all this anger about racial diversity.</p>
<p>ucplaya, there's no need to be rude. Holycow isn't the first to post a thread like this, nor will (s)he be the last.</p>
<p>Bay,
I don't think students with the highest SAT scores deserve to get in. That question is an egregious and incorrect oversimplification of the sentiments of most anti-AA'ers.</p>
<p>How about this:</p>
<p>Do you think that ALL URMs deserve a 1-up in the admissions process simply because of their race? Do you think that it's fair that race, a factor which cannot be controlled by the applicant, is considered in the admissions game?</p>
<p>I have nothing against sharing my classroom with those of other races, but it doesn't feel right knowing that some applicants were rejected on the basis of their race.</p>
<p>I'd like to think that my education has taught me that color has no bearing on the character of an individual. </p>
<p>My education will be valuable regardless of the races of my classmates.</p>
<p>A better question for you:
Would you consider your education to be less valuable on the basis of the race of your classmates?</p>
<p>
[quote]
My education will be valuable regardless of the race of my classmates.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Believe it or not, that's not neccesarily true.</p>
<p>Geographical location can't be controlled by the applicant either, yet that's considered. How diverse of an education would you get surrounded by people only from Podunk, Wyoming?</p>
<p>First generation, alumni connection, and religious affiliation are also frequently factors. Would you get rid of these too?</p>
<p>I wonder how much of a factor race really is. As much as recruited athletes, developmental admits, or legacies, who are admitted at an average rate of 40-60%?</p>
<p>Actually, I think you have over-simplified the admissions process. I think a process that favors racial diversity is much more complex.</p>
<p>And no, I do not think that "ALL URMS deserve a 1-up," whatever that means. I think schools endeavor to admit the most qualified applicants of every race.</p>
<p>And yes, i think it is absolutely fair that race, "a factor that cannot be controlled" is considered. Heck, your high school is considered, did you choose that? How about the city or state you live in, did you control that? What about your parents and their decisions to give you tutoring, SAT prep classes, music lessons, exposure to new experiences, etc., did you control that too?</p>
<p>I think you are wrong to think you might be "rejected" because of your race. Perhaps you need to think of it this way: The class has already been filled by others who made more of a contribution than you.</p>
<p>And while color may have no bearing on the "character" of an individual, it certainly has a bearing on that individual's life experiences.</p>
<p>Yes, your education may be valuable, but it will not be the same.</p>
<p>warblers, the debate is over AA right now. The fact that other programs exist in itself is not justification for AA.
[quote]
Actually, I think you have over-simplified the admissions process. I think a process that favors racial diversity is much more complex.
[/quote]
And you assumed that anti-AA'ers simplify it down to a single number.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And no, I do not think that "ALL URMS deserve a 1-up," whatever that means. I think schools endeavor to admit the most qualified applicants of every race.
[/quote]
Could you clarify why you think this is fair? Why is it wrong to compare members of different races?</p>
<p>
[quote]
And yes, i think it is absolutely fair that race, "a factor that cannot be controlled" is considered. Heck, your high school is considered, did you choose that? How about the city or state you live in, did you control that? What about your parents and their decisions to give you tutoring, SAT prep classes, music lessons, exposure to new experiences, etc., did you control that too?
[/quote]
I didn't control those factors, but those factors have a major impact on the amount of education I receive and the quality of it. A student from Andover is obviously going to have more opportunities than a student from Podunk high school. </p>
<p>The same cannot be said about race. A black student from Andover compared to an Asian from Podunk. Who has more access to resources and opportunities? Likely the Andover student. Who are colleges going to favor?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you are wrong to think you might be "rejected" because of your race. Perhaps you need to think of it this way: The class has already been filled by others who made more of a contribution than you.
[/quote]
By having a certain skin color?</p>
<p>
[quote]
And while color may have no bearing on the "character" of an individual, it certainly has a bearing on that individual's life experiences.
[/quote]
As do an infinite number of other things. Let's factor them all in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, your education may be valuable, but it will not be the same.
[/quote]
Not the same, necessarily less valuable?</p>
<p>
[quote]
A black student from Andover compared to an Asian from Podunk. Who's gotten more access to resources? Likely the Andover student. Who are colleges going to favor? That's something that's in limbo right now.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not really... the colleges will probably favor the kid from Podunk because he's had fewer resources and because colleges probably almost never get any applicants from Podunk and it is very benificial to diversity to have that kid from Podunk.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And while color may have no bearing on the "character" of an individual, it certainly has a bearing on that individual's life experiences.
As do an infinite number of other things. Let's factor them all in.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is what colleges try to do.</p>