<p>I knew that you weren't equating the two, but did want to point this out. I also do think that some families find their efc too hard to pay, and they are not honest with their children. That might be because they don't want to be honest with themselves, or they are ashamed to admit to their children that they just cannot live up to the responsibility they feel that they are obligated to take on. I think that some parents then look for an "excuse", and tell their child it is because he is gay, or he parties too much, or his major is irresponsible, or they don't like his gf, to get out of making the hefty payments that they originally planned to make for college.</p>
<p>Good point, northeastmom. A key aspect of this thread is the tag line "when parents have the means, but refuse to pay". How often do parents really have the means, i.e. they have the money set aside to pay for college? More often then not, students will assume parents have the means based on their income. As you point out, the EFC may be beyond the means of the parent, since there are other financial commitments it doesn't take into account.</p>
<p>The issues are more straightforward when a parent truly does have the money available, but refuses to pay. In these cases, I would expect the parents to pay as long as the students hold up their side of the bargain.</p>
<p>I am wondering if, in some cases, this refusal to pay (which, as others have pointed out upthread, is certainly a parent's right) is a way to keep the child close to home. After all, if an 18 year old cannot come up with the $40k a year she would need to attend some LACs and has to go to community college and work (at least for two years), that can best be accomplished (by most) by living at home and commuting.</p>
<p>Our daughter was offered a full ride at a small, good LAC. She was then accepted at other higher ranking schools. We told her that the money we didn't spend on college we would pay for her grad school. If she should decide not to go to the LAC, then she would need to pay $10,000/yr - through work, loan, etc. She decided to go the school she wanted. We have helped her to take out a loan. My husband and I have decided that if she tries to pay back the loan when she starts to work, we would pay it off for her. It is important to us that she has a stake in her education. She secured a job at her school in an office during her orientation week.</p>
<p>"I am wondering if, in some cases, this refusal to pay (which, as others have pointed out upthread, is certainly a parent's right) is a way to keep the child close to home. "</p>
<p>Very possible. And in some cases, the parents may be trying to keep the child home to meet the parent's neurotic needs. In other cases, the parents may correctly be judging that their kid lacks the maturity to be able to live away from the structure of home. There are some high achieving kids, for example, who do very well only because their parents are structuring them every minute. Sometimes the parents do this because that's the only way that the kids will academically achieve.</p>
<p>My H has a close friend who was kept home for selfish parental needs. Not only was this the case, but they threatened to only pay for his college if he ran work errands for dad. Dad drove him to and from college while his son resided with his grandparents (lived near the parents). The parents had a longstanding poor relationship with their son, and he moved out of their home when he was 15. He moved in with his grandparents at that time. Now the son is middle aged, and he has not spoken with his parents in years. I know this person for over 23 years and I know during that entire time he did not speak with them. He does speak with one or two of his siblings and he has been forever grateful to his grandparents.</p>
<p>The hard part about life is things don't always work out how you expect them to..</p>
<p>I always expected to be bitten by a radioactive spider and gain superpowers, but all I got was a welt and slight fever.....c rap. </p>
<p>There are many raods to the city and sometimes the best times and adventures occur on the roads that aren't the easiest. </p>
<p>To claypot, who doesn't like the fact that some people work their way through college and doesn't want to hear it... too bad..that's a way alot of people do it, if they want it bad enough. </p>
<p>What I am hearing is a whine that my mommy and daddy won't... for a-z reasons... too bad, what's your plan? to be bitter or be better? </p>
<p>To those who cry.."well, it was cheaper to go to school back then.." Hey, the paychecks were alot smaller too. $7,000 to go to college was a butload of money back then.</p>
<p>If you want, you'll find a way. The nice thing about education in this country is if you have the drive you can get where your going. If you really feel you can't, it's not the system that has given up, is it? </p>
<p>And Oregon state is a fine school, by the way. </p>
<p>As I read some of these, "I'll never be able to afford an ivy.." I always wonder if that person believes a certain brand of handbag or car will make them more popular as well. </p>
<p>Your education is what you make of it, not where you go....</p>
<p>"I have no hard feelings towards parents who say no. It is not a obligation to pay for college, it's a gift. Shame on ANY kid who doesn't appriecate a parent who bucks up..... and shame on anybody who shames a parent who doesn't."</p>
<p>I don't agree at all that paying for your children's college education is a "gift." I think that if you have enough money to do so, it's a moral obligation to help your children...just as it will their moral obligation to help you later on if you need it. To be blunt, a person who buys himself a new Lexus rather than helping his child with college tuition is just selfish, no matter how he might rationalize it.</p>
<p>Opie, what you say is true in essence ("it's what you make of it, not where you go ...") but I think we all have to admit that there <em>are</em> and <em>can be</em> differences in experience/quality of education from school to school, based on what the school offers, the quality of the professors and, frankly, the "quality" (for lack of a better word) of your fellow students. For instance, let's take a very bright, high achieving kid and put him in two situations:
1) a school where he is a big fish in a small pond and is the brightest (or among the brightest) in his class or
2.) a school where there are plenty of kids as smart if not smarter than he is.
Which environment is likely to stimulate the student to achieve his best?</p>
<p>"1) a school where he is a big fish in a small pond and is the brightest (or among the brightest) in his class or
2.) a school where there are plenty of kids as smart if not smarter than he is.
Which environment is likely to stimulate the student to achieve his best? "</p>
<p>Well, it's going to depend on the child isn't? My bright high achieving kidse ended up choosing option #1 and they both will end up being called Doctor at the end of the day...</p>
<p>That big fish in a little pond means sometimes you get the keys to the labs and science buildings. It means you are on a first name personal relationship with the professors and every opportunity for success is laid out there for your benefit. It means the professors are really interested in your success. It means you test and score just as high and in some cases higher than those kids from the named places. It means your medical school classes are three times bigger than any class at your college. should I stop now? ;) </p>
<p>Or you can be a number at a name school.. </p>
<p>I might feel differently but I sat through a 3 hour Stanford road show several years back.... and honestly, not every professor at a name school is better than professors at a smaller one. I have never come across so many "I I I me me" people in my life.. The first three professors were so self absorbed and in love with themselves that by the time the real professor on the tour started to speak.. well it was too late... I'm sorry, but I wanted to hear what they were going to do for my kids, not what kids were going to do for them and maybe get a mention in the book credits... </p>
<p>I mean really asking me to fork over $47,000 a year so my kid can do the grunt work for your book on 15th century poets and you'll give a small font credit in the back??? yea, where can I sign him up? </p>
<p>It's not the label that makes the jeans hold up, it's the material... </p>
<p>by the way my impression of a real professor is someone who is there to make the student better, first,second and third. Not somebody using free student grunt labor to get published. The students aren't there to enrich the professor, it's the other way round. IMHO.</p>
<p>"it's a moral obligation to help your children...just as it will their moral obligation to help you later on if you need it."</p>
<p>Not necessilary. while I agree somewhat morally with you. I don't think it is an obligation and should never be treated as such. But in the same token, a parent should never use tuition as a means of control either. A gift is a gift. It should be given and apprieciated without strings. </p>
<p>Which is a healither situation going it on your own, or doing exactly what mom and dad will pay for even though it isn't what you want? </p>
<p>" To be blunt, a person who buys himself a new Lexus rather than helping his child with college tuition is just selfish, no matter how he might rationalize it."</p>
<p>yup your correct, I would think that too, but that is also their right to do so.</p>
<p>To the person who said that the professor is there to make the student better...as a student, I would actually disagree. The professor is there to advance the field, and the student is there to learn from the professor, maybe to contribute as well. I'm thinking of majoring in some social science, and I admit that I haven't had any professors chasing after me to do research with them at my "name school." But I'd also say that I haven't made much of an effort to hunt them down because I've been doing other things that benefit me. And some of my professors know who I am...in the end, it's the responsibility of the student to pursue these opportunities.</p>
<p>The original topic - my family culture has always been that my parents would have sold the house, taken out a big loan, whatever, to send me to a top school, but then I'm also expected to help out with my little brother and to help support my parents when they're older. Mutual responsibility. Luckily they didn't actually have to sell the house, though.</p>
<p>This is such a fascinating (& scary) discussion.</p>
<p>Northstar--my son shared some similarities w/your son (super high test scores, straight As until HS--then made choices in 9th/10th grade that tanked his gpa to a low, low average level). He's now on the right track (straight As) but it's killing me to see (as I knew it would) his choices of college limited & his chances for merit financial aid reduced. </p>
<p>Like other parents mentioned here, my husband has said son 'has to pay for college himself' (like he & his siblings did back when). He also notes that community college isn't a good option (too many kids there who slacked their way through high school as an influential peer group). </p>
<p>So that leaves me (okay, crying, but also) trying to think of a plan.... </p>
<p>We're (I guess) upper mid class but w/an expensive house/no discretionary income. </p>
<p>I'll be researching all the choices discussed here (comm college better than 4 years at average college w/boat load of debt?). </p>
<p>Thanks for the great, insightful insights & debates.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He also notes that community college isn't a good option (too many kids there who slacked their way through high school as an influential peer group).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You will also find students there because they need to live close to home (ie: ill parent), because of financial hardship (parent might have lost a job, too many sibs and some in grad school as well as undergrad, some in debt from private k-12, low income). You'll find some there because they have a learning disability, poor high school choices (ie: got into trouble), or flunked/kicked out/suspended from a 4 year college, as well as slacking in high school. Some are there because of emotional issues or medical issues that need care and they feel better being with family. Some have to work in the family owned business. There is not one reason that students attend a community college. Also, some are there because they do not know what they want to do yet in life, and do not want to spend too much on college until they do know the direction that they will take. There are some going simply to conserve the family's money, and limit debt load.</p>
<p>Parents who aren't willing to support their kids through college and grad school shouldn't have kids. Just because college costed $2000 a semester when they were young doesn't mean it costs that much now.</p>
<p>If I have kids, then I'm putting them through private school from pre-k, and when they graduate from high school, they'll get a check from me-for $500,000. They're free to do with it as they wish. Half a million should cover college and grad school and a small down payment on a house if no grad school.</p>
<p>I'm not willing to spend $1mil+ per kid. That's why I'm NOT having kids.</p>
<p>Jolynne, I don't know where your community college is, but the caliber of community college students is really rising in many places; so many parents and students have chosen to do the AA for great value then go to a 2 year. My daughter is a really good student and taking challenging classes in HS and her employers think she's a great worker, but her PSATs are below range for all selective colleges, so who knows; she might be going the CC route to prove she can do well in college.</p>
<p>In 1979 I graduated HS and didn't want to go to college (I had applied and been accepted at Drexel and Penn State). I worked for 18 months (and didn't live at home). I lost my job and moved back home. My parents would have paid for me to go to college at that point. But I wanted to go to a 6 month Computer training that cost $6000. My parents wouldn't pay for that since they 'didn't approve'. I was very lucky that my grandmother had left me some money and I was able to use it to pay for my own school. My parents wouldn't even give me money for bus fare. </p>
<p>I got a job offer before graduating school (at age 21) and moved out on my own again. I have never received any monetary help from my parents.</p>
<p>OTOH, they paid for my younger brother to go to 4 1/2 years of college. He didn't have to take out any loans.</p>
<p>I still hate my parents.</p>
<p>I feel blessed to be paying for my son to go to NYU. He worked his ass off to get there and was rewarded with a big scholarship. I will do everything in my power to pay my share (yes he has perkins and stafford loans). </p>
<p>Lexus or 4 years of EFC? It's a no brainer to me. I drive a 17 yo Honda Civic. Gets me from A to B just fine</p>
<p>sueinphilly,</p>
<p>You're awesome. I agree with you. I will support my kids til the end. My parents were the same way. Being from a different culture didn't help, but I was on my own and really resented them for it. My kids have worked their butts off as well and they deserve all that I can do for them. God Bless you!</p>
<p>Some parents mess up. Some parents earn a bit of hatred from their kids. Its wrong to spend a lot of energy hating ones parents. but making excuses to justify their misdeeds as parents is just as wrong, and I see an awful lot of excuses in this thread.</p>
<p>Do right by your own kids no matter how your parents raised you.</p>