When second child follows a super star - advice sought

Parent Cafe
81

<p>Have you taught D-1 to utter praises for D-2 in the areas only D-2 accomplishes?</p>

<p>Or, if there are not yet clear “areas of accomplishment”, to recognize some subtle skills the D-2 has.</p>

<p>I have in my mind the word “passive” when you described D-2. She could just be holding back, feeling absolutely unable to compete. Or she could be an astute observer of the human condition. </p>

<p>Really try to explore the world of D-2 and see how it looks from her vantage point. She might have social wisdom and subtleties that will help her steer a different kind of path than the one who earns A’s. </p>

<p>You can also tell a kid, “you are just as smart as your older sibling” since it’s probably true, anyway but hasn’t manifested itself yet in the 8 or so types of “smarts” I mentioned in my above posting. </p>

<p>I mean, it never ends does it. My S attended a great LAC full of smart people. One friend, whom he admired for her tenacity, organization and follow-through, admired him for his quick flash and creativity. Each thought the other was smart. In the end, they just liked each other as people (dated awhile, too).</p>

82

<p>^ paying2tuitions, D1 actually seems to envy D2 in terms of appearance (D2 is very pretty) and her social ease. D1 also thinks we’re too easy on D2, that we should give her a bad time about her 3.8 average. They are very different personalities - D1 was always determined to outperform everyone around her; D2 is always determined to get to know everyone and be their friend.</p>

<p>The question is just should we as parents be emphasizing to her the importance of super high grades? Having just come through an admissions year with D1, we are shocked by the tremendously good students graduating with D1 who were rejected at so many schools that one would have thought they’d be shoe-ins at. Thre’s so much obsessing on CC over the SAT but what we observed at our high school is that the GPA is paramount in admissions. We are fairly certain D2 will have very high scores. It’s her GPA that could cause her lots of disappointment down the road.</p>

<p>D2 wears a Harvard sweatshirt to school all the time and tells people she’s “probably going there” just like her sister. It makes me very anxious. </p>

<p>Oh well. With kids buried beneath their schools in China and all the other lousy horrible things going on, I need to get a grip before I really have something to worry about, I guess. :o</p>

83

<p>I see now, there are a lot more LEGO maniacs out there. That is very encouraging.<br>
I am already in full speed…found several parents interested in teaming up to join the First Lego League event. During my lunch hour, I found more information on Lego Camps near our area as well. (Well, I need something to do as most of the excitement/busy work on college applications/dorm selections are over with. ) </p>

<p>Igreen, He has K’Nex, but he likes LEGOs more.</p>

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<p>Mammal I see your dilemma (post 82). I’ve read a lot on CC that the combination of high scores and low GPA fairly screams out: “underachiever, beware of admitting.”</p>

<p>Others here can say whether 3.8 is really a low GPA. It’s pretty darned good IMHO, just maybe not Harvard good.</p>

<p>Perhaps after the big sister clears out and goes to Harvard, next fall the center of attention will be on your younger daughter around the dinner table. Perhaps she (SHE!) can set some manageable goals to ramp up her grades at school and you can offer support. If she’s not organized at home, help her. If she has among her friends (readily made) a study-buddy, feed them dinner and ask questions that bring about discussing concepts and ideas from the course together. Maybe then, a hard-study session can ensue after dinner between the two of them. Your daughter can exchange a strength to share with the study-buddy so she’;s not just on the receiving end. </p>

<p>If she wears the Harvard sweatshirt, she’s working through her pride in her big sister. I think if someone asked if she thought she could really go to Harvard too, at this point, a hug around the shoulders and “Who knows, you just might…you can apply there and elsewhere, so many great schools” sounds okay for 9th grade. </p>

<p>My oldest kid is forever telling me I should toughen up on the youngest. That part, I think, is built in to the birth order dynamics. (Reminding me: I learned a lot by reading a book called “Birth Order” and so did my middle child!! It explained a lot of our goofy family dynamics; evidently, a lot of families are also goofy.)</p>

<p>Our S-2 applied to his older brother’s college, well above his score and grade-level, where S-l had recently graduated. S-2 didn’t get in, but by then, he didn’t exactly want to go there either. Of course they did reject him – and they should have, really. It ended up being a curiosity application, but it was there along with 7 others.
Because of the ease as described, the rejection didn’t bum him out particularly.</p>

<p>Eventually you might let her apply to Harvard, but hopefully by then her own list will include things that might be more for her anyway. </p>

<p>I might be a bit stern with your D-1 and fairly demand that she show support of her younger sister, and recognize that the paths will likely differ. It’s completely MYOB regarding the younger sister’s grades. The older daughter is probably well-meaning enough, wanting her younger sister to realize a full potential. You might have to tell D-l fairly directly how to be supportive of D-2 to not alienate her affections. They each only have one sister in this world. It might be good for D-1 to lighten up a bit about D-2. But I do get lectured and chided all the time about how I spoil the youngest. Goes with the birth-order territory. Just that sometimes those achieving oldest kids are so clueless about hurting others’ feelings, and they have to be told fairly straight what is hurtful, since they don’t feel it inside-out.</p>

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<p>mammall: If D2 is really interested in attending Harvard, then she should be open to a discussion of what it takes to get in there. You could show her Harvard class profile GPAs. If she knows that having a better GPA will help her chances for admission, then you have done all you can – no need to be nervous. The ball is in her court.</p>

<p>She should be fully aware also that even people with top notch grades and test scores don’t necessarily get admitted to every school they apply to. Give her information and let her decide what to do with it.</p>

86

<p>If D2 really wants to go to Harvard, it’s not the GPA that needs work, it’s the desire for achievement. For some people, their desire for achievement will carry them to the top GPA, but if that’s all it does they are not going to stand out in the crowd of Harvard applicants. There needs to be something – a lot of something – more. And if the something more is there, a 3.8 GPA will be enough – especially if it shows that the student kept challenging herself until she found something actually difficult for her.</p>

87

<p>Do you people live on planet earth? You are worried about a ninth grader’s gpa of 3.8 that will somehow signal “underachiver”?</p>

<p>In my neck of the woods the underachievers are the kids with the 2.3 GPA’s and near perfect SAT’s; the kids who haven’t been to math class since October, the kids who play video games instead of writing college essays; the kids who “intuit” calculus without actually having to sit through a lecture but then get a C- because they cut too many classes and don’t hand in homework.</p>

<p>I feel your responses are seriously deranged. You want to continue to tell a kid with a 3.8 that she doesn’t measure up to big Harvard sis for what purpose? You divine from the sweatshirt she wears that somehow she’s deluded herself into thinking that she’s good enough for Harvard?</p>

<p>Harvard couldn’t care less that she has a 3.9 or a 3.8 if the rest of the package is there. What hope does this kid have of developing the sense of confidence, the passion in her own interests, and the record of stunning achievement outside the classroom with the focus paid to her test scores and gpa?</p>

<p>The recent H matriculants I know range from a kid who started his own business (nice feature story in Business Week; a couple of smaller mentions in WSJ and NYT); an Intel winner; an accomplished ballet dancer who also had a demanding research job at a world class lab; a kid who taught himself two different Asian languages when his small, crappy HS couldn’t find him a teacher to actually teach him. None had perfect GPA’s and they were too busy being out there doing and accomplishing and learning to obsess about an A- or a B+.</p>

<p>The kids who obsess endlessly and work their tails off for a fraction of a point don’t come off as underachievers-- they come off as robotic and H has no need to admit them when the world is filled with interesting, passionate kids with a strong sense of confidence and gusto for learning.</p>

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<p>This year-
Just be encouraging! Don’t push HYP or college at all. If big sis got in, she knows what’s required grade and EC-wise already. She may choose to acknowledge those requirements and meet them, or to stray from them to make her own mark. If you bring up college expectations now, when she’s probably already placed them upon herself in some way, she’ll see every bit of school advice (“Join this club” or “Why don’t you study instead of watching Gossip Girl tonight?”) as a mechanism in your college game. Not true, but she’s a teen. I’m a hs freshman, and that’s unfortunately the way it goes. Of course, be enthusiastic when she talks about clubs or a particularly interesting class. Encourage her to love learning, but for now, leave college out of it so she doesn’t feel pressured to fit into her sister’s shadow.</p>

<p>Later-
If you need financial aid, sophomore year is a good year to discuss that with her. This will allow her to map choices for maximum merit and financial aid before she gets her sights set on schools that aren’t plausible. Otherwise, wait until the summer before junior year to really bring it up. You may be surprised at how much she’ll know from her sister, if they are on any sort of friendly terms. Sure, print her off a few of the better CC threads–but if you’re worried about pressuring her, don’t tell her where to find them! CC is exactly the wrong place for a laid-back girl. At the same time, don’t close off college communication. You want her to be educated on what her options are, whether she’s become an Ivy-worth-candidate in her own right or maintained a state U-worthy streak, and to be excited enough by the process to discuss it openly with you. </p>

<p>Just keep it low key, because that’s the kind of person she is. But don’t be surprised if your laid-back girl becomes super-organized or over-achieving. She will change, and really the only thing you can do to make her think that you think she can’t do it (mouthful there, sorry) is to compartmentalize her to early. Sure, she’s not her sister’s shadow, but she may not always be her polar opposite either.</p>

89

<p>Mammall - As a CC lurker, I’ve read a number of your posts throughout this past year. I congratulate your D (and you by backward extension) on the many honors, acceptances, etc., to which you refer. However, I also note that a number of your posts referred to your D as exhausted, sleep-deprived, etc. If I’m recalling correctly (and forgive me if I’m confusing you with a different poster - I didn’t take the time to read back through the posts), you expressed concern about whether your D could keep up that pace in college as well. D2 no doubt saw what her “superstar” sister went through to get the high gpa and honors. Perhaps sleep deprivation is not the path she wants to take.</p>

90

<p>^ blossom - I know many get into top schools through huge passions and distinctive accomplishments. I just don’t personally know those kids. At our high school the kids who go to those schools are just really impeccable students, mostly - and involved in meaningful ways within their schools and communities. That’s pretty much my D1, and that’s my point of reference for D2. </p>

<p>paying3tuitions, JHS, glassesarechic, blossom, gladmom – I appreciate all the words of wisdom - it’s all good. CC can be such great therapy.</p>

<p>ColonielMustard - Absolutely true - It was truly harrowing to watch our D1 go through her junior and first half of senior year. She attends a school where kids engage in a sort of nuclear arms race of APs - she herself will complete 14 by graduation, several have significantly more. There was simply no sleep to be had during this. D2 definitely noted what went on and I do think she wonders whether it’s all worth it.</p>

91

<p>so what if one “falls short” or “blows by” the other.
if you love your children - no insinuation - you will treat each differently because they are different.</p>

<p>FYI (my younger bro. had the most boring report cards in school
all his grades were the same. my reports, however, showed great
variety, range, and sometimes a distinctive pattern)</p>

<p>turn out kids - not products</p>

92

<p>o.k. I must confess. Everthing I said here on CC were made up. </p>

<p>I don’t know why I would do something like this.</p>

93

<p>I was the second child (three years behind brother who was a great high school student). I was always trying to outdo him. That’s probably why I did so well in high school. Sometimes that can be a motivator. It probably helped that we went to different high schools.</p>

94

<p>Mamall- disclosure, my kids did not get into H. However, at their HS where the stated limit is 5 AP’s (one kid every couple of years manages to take 6 but that is highly unusual) the typical H admittee has completed 4 AP’s by graduation, the usual academic program, high test scores. What distinguishes them (3-4 every year) from the kids who don’t get in has nothing to do with their academic program since there is a core group of 20 or so with virtually indistinguishable grades. It’s the rest of the package… and the recent trend suggests that the kids at the top of the pile on academics who are only average elsewhere not only don’t get into H but don’t get into their other first choices either.</p>

<p>I would not allow an adolescent to suffer from long term sleep deprivation for any reason; I think your younger D has probably assessed the risk/reward factor for her quite appropriately. There are kids in our HS every year who are seriously shocked to discover that perfect grades and scores are not the magic ticket… and that the magic lies outside the classroom and often in quite pleasurable ways that don’t involve huge self-sacrifice. The 17 year old entrepreneur turned his passion into a profitable business; he is a warm and quirky guy who everyone loves, very smart and talented academically, but a different breed from the grinding classroom robot working hard to turn an A- into an A.</p>

<p>I’ve re-read your original post… your D2 is completing 8th grade, not 9th, correct? I would worry more about her transition to HS than about college admissions at this point. Her head should be in a different place right now and you are the person to help her do that.</p>

95

<p>Kids mature at different levels and interest in school will change. My first born was the family super star and was a difficult act for my D to follow. She was more laid back, very social and easygoing and things did not come as easily though she was always most inspirational in varsity sports, team captain, well liked by everyone, student counsil. She always had to work harder and her grades were not as stellar as her brother. She did not have as many options college wise as her brother. As a sophomore she transferred back to her state honors college and has a 3.9 GPA. She has totally changed, wants to get a PhD, works 2 jobs, does research, is an amazing student. She matured later and has a goal. She actually has a higher GPA then her brother. They each have their path and success is not just which college or what their GPA is. My D is very independent and her motivation now is totally internal. Your second one may surprise you.</p>

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<p>Sometimes sheer impeccable academics will do the trick at top schools if teacher recs are glowing and the student has an intellectual depth that comes across on the applications. My D1 is living proof of this. But Blossom you are absolutely correct and as I look at things more objectively I see other students getting into their reach schools via a multitude of different paths. The sleep deprivation that went on with my older child for the last two years of high school was pretty much the situation of all the ambitious students at her high school. At school events the AP teachers would joke about how “wrecked” their students looked. We worried constantly about our daughter’s health, especially when she was driving - exhaustion can be as bad an impairment as alcohol. She just got caught up in a community of high achievers and it became her norm. I hope that college won’t be more of the same but I’m not optimistic. She is recovering somewhat now that she is graduated - lots of sleep and relaxation. Still, she looks like the survivor of something pretty formidable. I really don’t know anyone truly happy with the state of affairs these days in college admissions. The global economy seems to be making the world ever more competitive and as parents who love our kids and want them to be secure and safe in this difficult envioronment, it is natural to look to educational achievement as the sensible stragegy. But the competition is so terrible, the cost so awfully high. Just don’t know.</p>

<p>I started this thread for help with how to motivate D2 to be like D1. Now I want the opposite! We can get so caught up in the mad pursuit of the brass ring. The challenge will be helping D2 navigate high school being true to her talents but not engaging in the workaholic craziness. Like someone with a drinking problem who has to manage to drink socially without going on a binge.</p>

<p>Enough. Thank you everyone. I will do my best. It’s a jungle out there.</p>

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<p>I agree that the hard push for the last .1 or .2 GPA is generally not worth it. It probably kept S1 from a couple of acceptances, but it did NOT keep him from the schools he really wanted. Those were the places that also happened to value intellectual curiosity and academic risk-taking – values S holds dear to his heart. S1 never pulled an all-nighter. He never did more than cursory review for AP exams. However, the tough classes weren’t the problem; he nailed those. It was the ones where the teacher was unengaging or the work so dull that he’d go through the motions, and then forget to turn in completed HW. <em>Those</em> are the ones that drive me nuts.</p>

<p>What burns S2 is that he sees “everyone” around him getting those big test scores without effort, while he studies, works hard and does well, but “not good enough” to his mind. (S2 just got his USH SAT-II back. Fabulous score – but S2 was not happy.) S2 compares himself to his classmates and feels he’s not as capable. To my mind, this is a fundamental difference between S1 and S2: S1 is energized by intellectual competition (not for grades, but for the clash of minds and ideas), S2 (who is even more capable of intellectually rigorous debate) feels he doesn’t measure up.</p>

<p>I am VERY thankful the two of them don’t attend the same school (and haven’t since elementary school). On the other hand, this skewed self-perception is exacerbated by “living in the bubble,” as I call it. S2 is in a competitive admission program where the average SAT score is in the 2100s – the kids are very bright, talented and ambitious – and S2 loves being there. Would not leave for anything. However, the bubble colors his self-perception. Given that he is very socially and emotionally astute, he internalizes this more than others might. </p>

<p>So, what do I do as a parent? What does this mean for college? First, I’m tossing out most of what I learned w/S1’s admissions process. While S1 is very deep and focused in his interests, S2’s are much more eclectic and varied. S2 has not yet found his life’s passion – on the other hand, he juxtaposes some really interesting and unusual stuff. His college essays won’t be about “how I started my Intel research at age six.” On the other hand, they will probably be witty, philosophical and more revealing than he intends. I am encouraging S2 to find ways he can develop leadership – he’s got the people skills, he just has to find the right venue.</p>

<p>Mainly, I am trying to help S2 feel he has control in his life – he feels very buffeted about by the demands/expectations of teachers, peers, parents, colleges, etc. I want him to develop internal motivation and goals so he can negotiate these waters. His ethical sense is very finely tuned and he has a great BS detector. He hasn’t quite internalized that one can criticize hypocrisy while still recognizing that there may be aspects of the underlying behavior which still have value.</p>

<p>I should probably print this out and use it as the basis of a discussion with him. This has helped me put together a couple of things I’ve been trying to reconcile about his outlook.</p>

98

<p>Happy ending for mammall!</p>

99

<p>

Slight rathole … I have made two presentations to CEOs of Fortune 100 companies … in one of them the main visual used were Legos … never underestimate the usefullnes of a great toy!</p>

100

<p>I will NEVER make my children give up their Legos, not ever. The Lego company has endowed a professorship at MIT (recently held by Seymour Papert), and if MIT doesn’t consider Legos disreputable, who am I to object to my children playing with Legos?</p>