Where do smart (high SAT) and lazy (low GPA) kids go?
D is working on her college list for 2015-16, but we are having difficulties to identify the typical reach/match/safety targets. She is supper smart (SAT 2330 with virtually no preparation) but also unreasonably lazy (GPA around 3.3 unweighted, mainly because of the lack of participation and late homework). With such a awkward combination, her application would be totally unpredictable.
Please help by sharing your experience with smart but lazy kids. Where do they go? What strategies would you recommend? etcâŠ
A little bit more information:
Asian, attending a TINY international school in Beijing, China; 4-5 AP courses; so-so EAs.
devoted a lot of time in fine arts, (pre-AP and AP, she said sheâs a good artist, and would definitely submit arts portfolio supplement).
She seems to agree that LACs may be better for her.
I forgot to mention. Yes, sheâs a US citizen applying for US colleges. This was our promise to her when moved back to China (3rd grade). Right now, cost is not the No. 1 consideration, but that may change down the road.
âShe is supper smart (SAT 2330 with virtually no preparation) but also unreasonably lazy (GPA around 3.3 unweighted, mainly because of the lack of participation and late homework).â
Has anyone at her school suggested that she be screened for Executive Function issues or ADD? That is something that would be worth looking into. If she were in a public school in the US it would be easy to get the testing done, and the Resource Teacher would be able to help her work on the compensation skills that she needs to develop in order to achieve better in school. I would start with that. In order to do well in college, she needs to be able to stay on top of her schoolwork.
You need to think very carefully about the cost of her education. Many places in the US will cost your family more than US $50,000 each year, some are now more than US $70,000. If you donât have that kind of money available, you need to know that now.
Assuming cost isnât an issue, Iâd take a look at some of the Colleges That Change Lives (a great resource book), and some of the midwestern LACs. While her GPA is on the low side, her background is unusual and she is a URM for some midwestern schools. Look at Grinnell, Oberlin, Macalester (reaches), Beloit, Lawrence, Rhodes, HendrixâŠIf her GPA trend is at least upward, they are less likely to weight her freshman year as heavily as subsequent years: Does that help? Iâd also look at some of the less traditional eastern LACs like Bard, Hampshire and Sarah Lawrence. And maybe a few in the northwest like Evergreen, Willamette, University of Puget Sound, Lewis & ClarkâŠ
There are lots of square pegs out there for whom high school is an exercise in being forced into the round hole. The great thing about college is that suddenly there are so many more options. But I agree with happymom1 that you might not want to rule out a disability: Lots of kids present as âlazyâ because the alternative, in their minds, is âstupidâ and no one wants that label.
"Has anyone at her school suggested that she be screened for Executive Function issues or ADD? "
âLots of kids present as âlazyâ because the alternative, in their minds, is âstupidâ and no one wants that label.â
What an unexpected piece of advice! While I was reading happymomof1 and Nâ Momâs replies, D was also searching for Executive Dysfunction. We talked, and both of us agreed that this may be the problem that has been holding her back. I apologized to her because I thought it was a character flaw (at some point, I gave up and told her I will love her for who she is)
Thanks a lot! We will definitely seek professional help ASAP.
My son has the same issues. He does well in classes that interest him, but he has a long history of blowing off assignments in ones that donât. Iâm hoping that will be less of an issue in college. Most of his problems have been in English classes; he is an avid reader, but doesnât like to write about books. On the other hand, he loves writing about movies and has done well when heâs been able to do that in English class.
Our kids have similar grades and scores, and itâs good to know there are options out there.
I despair for a world where an unweighted B+ average is considered a symptom of a serious disorder. I considered my younger son a good student with the same. His test scores werenât in this girlâs league, and he was accepted at 10 good colleges, including schools as selective at UCSD, Pitzer, Tulane, and Occidental. Really, folks! This is an exceptionally bright kid who has been able to coast through high school. She might find college much more stimulating. Heck, sheâs a teenager, who might even mature. This automatic medicalization of anything less than a perfect academic record makes me wanna start throwing things and scrawling graffiti in the girlsâ room.
@woogsmama, I agree. Finding many high school deadly boring and not wanting to do the work obviously isnât an ideal situation, but it isnât necessarily a medical issue either. Neither of my sons likes school, which is something our kids have in common with me. My wife always liked school, so their academic underachieving bugs them more than it does me. Iâve tried to tell my older son to spend a little time and do it halfway, but at least turn in something. S16 would be the first to admit that heâs a slacker, albeit a bright one.
Last I heard, a discrepancy between SAT scores and GPA were not a diagnostic criteria for executive functioning disorders or ADHD. Yes, look into this, but it might very well NOT be the case.
In the meantime, there are plenty of colleges that will welcome this student.
Agree. My younger son also did better on SATâ s than his grades in HS. It had nothing to do with ADHD or Executive function disorder. He just didnât like doing homework and didnât put enough effort into classes he didnât like. It was really just that simple. He did very well once he got to college.
Note that some schools do not allow AP English scores to completely escape English composition course requirements. For example, at MIT, all students must take at least two CI-H (communication intensive - humanities) subjects (= courses in MIT jargon); those who do not score a 5 on AP English must have at least one of these by a CI-HW (greater focus on writing) subjects. But MIT offers CI-HW and CI-H subjects on various topics, as listed at http://web.mit.edu/commreq/cih.html . MIT also requires all students to complete at least two additional communication intensive subjects in their majors (for humanities majors, these are different from the CI-HW and CI-H lists).
Boston University requires all students to take an English placement test during orientation. Only a very few students are exempt from the required freshman writing course. And those exempt from that course are required to take a different English literature course.
My kid got a 5 on the AP exam. He was NIT exempt from the freshman writing required course, but did get two semesters of English Literature credit which otherwise would,have needed to be taken.
@sevmom so your sonâs situation may be a maturity issues.
Some kids never wake up to what it takes with college, and find work that fits what efforts they are willing to put into things. Some do work they like or find other things (a friendâs son, an only child whose dad is a MD, finished college and is working as a waiter in Austin TX and loves his life). Another friendâs son is a happy drummer in a band in Austin (and TX is not an adjoining state to where we live). Who knows what these fellows will be doing in 10 years, but you have to let your kids go the direction they want to go - doesnât break any laws and I would categorize them as productive citizens. I have a co-worker whose son could score a ACT of 33 his first time in HS, but yet failed two classes and had to go to summer school to graduate HS (and now he is happily married, but never pursued school beyond HS, and is working as a clerk/asst manager in retail). Another friendâs son was struggling with HS (from a maturity and work ethic situation, just hated doing the school work) and entered the military right after HS.
This happens with gals too - a friendâs DD lost her school loans/grants due to âfailure to progressâ - is only a few courses away from a degree in psychology, and is 25; mom paid for on-line courses and DD didnât finish (partly due to personal choices she made living with chaotic room-mate situation).
I do think the mom and student OP situation strongly suggests the evaluation for EFD and ADHD. The lack of homework may also be organizational skills. Class participation lack due to shyness or other? It doesnât sound like student motivation is the problem.
You want to have the right degree plan/right school match for student to be as successful as possible while enjoying the college experience. Sounds like OPâs DD is entering HS senior year. Will you have an opportunity to do college visits?
Good luck with the process. The 3.3 GPA may limit scholarship (and affect cost of attending for you). Look at the specific college costs and what your limitations are, which will help you focus on the right subset to investigate further.
I had a kid like that - 3.3 GPA and 2260 SAT. I knew he probably didnât have âissuesâ because he participated in tons of ECs and had some leadership roles - when he liked something, he tried. Does your D excel in other areas that arenât academic? Where does she rank in her high school?
In my kidâs case, he went off to an OOS flagship, graduated with a very high GPA (interestingly, his college roommate, who had graduated high school with a very high GPA, had trouble keeping up with the work in college and almost flunked out his first year) and is now successfully employed in his field. What made the difference? Who knows - more interesting coursesâŠmaturityâŠgrade deflation in high school not showing his potential? It definitely wasnât any kind of executive function issue or ADD.
I have been having difficulties grasping Dâs school performance. She took AP courses with juniors in 9th grade, scored high in PSAT (227 in 10th grade and 233 in junior year), and enjoyed a kind of celebrity-status in school (as the smartest kid). Every teacher speaks very high of her⊠but then in school report card, almost every subject (including her beloved ones such as English and Arts ) reads like âlow efforts,â âneeds more participation,â late homework," and so forth. We just found out that she probably ranks in bottom half of her class in terms of GPA.
There may be a lot of reasons. For example, some courses may be too easy and thus boring for her; she did not like the ways some teachers taught. But the bigger patterns are the lack of organization and the difficulty of getting things done. For example, she often forgot deadlines; even sheâs aware of deadlines, sheâd wait until the last day; and in the last day, sheâd wait until the last hour; when she could not finish in time, she wouldnât bother to turn it in; and worse, sheâd behave like nothing happens.
So how does she spend her time? Sleeping, and if sheâs not sleeping, reading and drawing. She writes and talks (about abstract issues) better than most of my graduate students; and she said sheâs working on a new art form. But you got me, all these wonât show up in her application.
We are really worried whether she can handle more demanding college life (with endless deadlines). She may change for good, or she may find it more miserable in college if indeed she has ADHD issues. We just cannot take the risk by assuming that everything would be fine in college.
Regardless of the nature of her case, the bottom line is that she needs to come up with a reasonable list. Therefore, any suggestions or experiences (good or bad) would be very helpful.