<p>if your stats are equal to a school's average admittee, you have less than an average chance of admittance due to how scores "pyramid" from top down.>></p>
<p>TheDad, I see your point, especially at schools where the admission percentages are low (below 50%). However, all of the schools on my daughter's list have RD admissions rates of above at least 60%, and the ones where she applied EA have admissions rates above 80%. I'm taking a calculated risk, perhaps, in thinking of her odds as 50-50 at the schools where her factors are in line or above the medians, but perhaps not as much of a risk as if she was applying to schools where there's a 10% or 30% admit rate. Then, yes, you need to calibrate downwards accordingly.</p>
<p>BenGolub, I agree with you when it comes to my daughter. She has attended a very rigorous and competitive high school like SJmom's son. While she has done fairly well in honors level work there, she has found it a constant uphill battle that she frankly doesn't want to repeat in college. She also has noticed how much attention the teacher's lavish on the "top students" but not the capable students like her who, try as they might, are always a few notches down in terms of performance. She wants challenge, but perhaps not quite as much competition as she's had in high school. As she's put it "It would be nice to have a chance of being at the top again instead of having to work so hard to always end up in the middle." Don't get me wrong: she'll work hard where ever she ends up - that's just her nature - but she'd like to see her hard work recognized and celebrated a bit more than it has been at her competitive high school. I struggled with that a bit at first, but now I think she's got the right idea. By the way, with one exception (her ultimate safety), I am convinced that ALL of the schools on her list offer a solid educational value and lots of potential for intellectual development.</p>
<p>On the other hand, my sophomore son is just thriving on the challenge at their high school, absolutely loves the competition, and is excelling gradewise without breaking much of a sweat. He'll likely be aiming at very different types of schools in a few years. Doesn't make him better than her per se: He's just a different kind of person. </p>
<p>And that, as always with picking colleges, is the key: know your child, and encourage them to really think about what type of academic environment they really want to be in. Not every kid who is capable of doing "elite school" academics should be or needs to be in a top school in order to succeed and do well.</p>
<p>Carolyn, good point and I'll stipulate to it. I was indeed thinking of schools with admit rates in the 10-50 percent range. Not out of any conscious snobbery, that's just the universe of schools that D and hence me was most focused on...iow, it's what I know.</p>
<p>TheDad, I understand. In a few years, when my S. is likely to be more focused on schools like those that interested your D., I'm sure I'll be singing a different tune. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
At a non-tech school it's possible to excel in another activity, as Pyewacket suggests.
[/quote]
Well, that's true, but I'd argue my statement -- that it's not worth going if you're going to be in the bottom quartile -- holds at elite non-tech schools too. I took most of my classes at Princeton during my senior year of high school, and while the absolute standards were somewhat less rigorous than at Caltech (that is, it was much harder to fail out), it still didn't seem to be particularly fun to be in the academic bottom quartile. One has to be the tag-along in study groups, go through most of life not really understanding what's going on, get low grades at schools known for their grade inflation... say what you will, but this situation certainly isn't ideal for learning much. Many studies show that people learn best when they feel they are performing well and succeeding -- and tend to give up in disillusionment when they are scraping bottom in their group, even though they might be doing quite well by a broader standard.</p>
<p>Certainly, it's still true that one can make the most of the situation -- build a social network, join some clubs and excel at extracurriculars -- try to be valuable despite being academically marginal. But I wonder, if there were less (often parental) pressure to "get into an elite school", how many students would choose that route -- going through college grasping to succeed at something, since the main purpose clearly isn't their cup of tea? My feeling, from having known a lot of students at a lot of places is: not many. Carolyn's remarks about her daughter are exactly on the money here.
[quote]
As she's put it "It would be nice to have a chance of being at the top again instead of having to work so hard to always end up in the middle." Don't get me wrong: she'll work hard where ever she ends up - that's just her nature - but she'd like to see her hard work recognized and celebrated a bit more than it has been at her competitive high school.
[/quote]
That's exactly what I've heard so many times. And I wonder how many times parents are kind of deaf to that in the pursuit of prestige. (That post was great overall, Carolyn).</p>
<p>Short story: yes, students can succeed on the academic margin at their super-reaches, through social mountaineering and extracurricular involvement. But how many of them would have chosen to do so, knowing the realities? Would anyone seriously argue that it doesn't deprive them of an environment more conducive to learning at their pace? And whose interests are (a small class of pushy) parents serving when they nudge their children toward this situation?</p>
<p>Ben, I think you missed my point. I was suggesting that it's possible to truly excel in a particular subject at an elite school, because of the variety of majors, but not be in the top 25% overall. If a student is outstanding in the humanities or social sciences, he could well be in the top 25% at such a school, yet not be a standout in math or science. That's not likely to happen to someone who's in the bottom 25% of the pool. And it's almost impossible to be successful at Caltech or MIT if one isn't really strong in math. The basic curriculum, at least at MIT, requires extensive math and science classes. In any case, with one son at a very selective school, I would encourage any really strong student to pursue such an education. But this is where I think SAT scores matter -- if a high school GPA was achieved through sheer diligence, that student will find the road to be very difficult at an elite college. There's just not enough spare capacity to handle the increased challenge and workload. So I don't think you and I really disagree, after all.</p>
<p>My D jumped at the chance to be at the bottom of the pile. She wanted the challenge and academic stimulation. She is very driven and self disciplined. I know she is not finding college easy. She will never be at the front but I do believe she will rise to the challenges and at least move toward the middle of the pack.</p>
<p>I don't understand the comments about joining clubs and doing a lot of EC's. My D seems to have made a lot of friends but hardly has the time for a lot of EC's or entertainment. When kids don't do well in college, the lack of brainpower is rarely the reason. The bigger issues are alcohol, drugs, lack of motivation, confidence or maturity.</p>
<p>We have never pushed our D. We are way behind trying to look ahead so that we even have a hint where she is going. Women have changed. They aren't all meek, social butterflies. More of them are becoming self-reliant, self-confident, and ambitious. They are ready to take on challenges and women's sports have trained to win.</p>
<p>edad -- your daughter was exactly the exception in the back of my mind when I was writing that post. Some students are really eager to interact with those more talented than they are in some areas and don't predicate any self-esteem on exactly where they end up in the pack. They truly have the mentality to learn a lot despite not coming in with all the advatages. Usually the way this personality shows itself is through immense motivation (despite lack of any pushing... so the advice against too much pressure still applies.) This sounds like exactly what happened in your daughter's case, and such students seem like they'll do fine for themselves anywhere. </p>
<p>And sjmom -- good point. It does indeed appear that we don't disagree.</p>
<p>"Immense" motivation sounds about right. Sometimes I feel proud, most of the time I just don't know where it comes from or what to make of it. Certainly there has not been any pushing. My D was not pushable even at an early age. About all we have ever done is to try to give her opportunities and choices.</p>
<p>I like to think that every student accepted at a particular school CAN succeed. Unfortunately, I've run across HS kids who have private tutors for SATs and expensive consultants to help "edit" their applications, often directing them from 9th grade on. These few exceptions could have a difficult time succeeding in college without backup.</p>
<p>My son had a 730 verbal and a 590 math. Oddly, he got waitlisted and subsequently rejected at U of Maryland, but got accepted everywhere else. Of course, he is a music performance major and his audition was the most important part of HIS application process. Still...he had to meet the admission standards of the universities to which he applied (he attends Boston University...how did he get accepted there, and rejected by Maryland?? We still think that is odd). We suspect his strong verbal score was something that got the attention of the admissions folks at BU...but that is just a guess. DD has a less lopsided score...580 CR and 650 Math. She is either at or above the 75%ile in Math at all of her schools, and she is somewhere in the mean for her CR. She applied EA to two schools (her top choice is in those) that accept nearly 80% of their EA applicants and we hope that this will suffice. Her GPA and class rank are excellent (top 5% with a 3.87 GPA). But admissions are VERY odd, and I am a high maintenance dubious doubter (don't laugh Carolyn) so, we just have to wait and see what happens. DD is still trying to decide whether to apply to one true reach school. If she waits much longer, the deadline will pass and we won't have to worry about it anymore :)</p>
<p>As I'm sure you realize, admissions for performance majors is not at all a straightforward process. The audition is very important, but the decision is also influenced by the needs of the school and the strength of the competition in that particular year. That is why performing arts majors need to do a lot of research and apply to a lot of places. </p>
<p>Some schools are up front and will tell you flat out that they are not accepting applications for, say, flute majors this year. Others will audition anyway on the off chance that they get someone who is so spectacular that they simply can't turn them away. Then they reject EVERYONE who applied because even the best did not measure up to that standard. Maryland in particular has that spectacular new Clarice Smith Center, and I bet they have seen an upsurge in the number and quality of their applicants.</p>
<p>Your son could have had an off day when he auditioned at Maryland, he may have been one of too many good applicants, or the judges may not have approved of the shirt he wore to the audition. In all likelihood, his academic credentials had very little to do with Maryland's decision. They will certainly not mind if his math score was in the average-to-very-good range rather than in the gifted range. </p>
<p>Getting accepted at all but one school is amazingly good. My daughter was rejected at half the places she applied (including BU) but she still had some great choices.</p>
<p>Okay - I went to one of the top Ivies (HYP) and I think any of the top half of the kids in my high school (okay, I went to prep school) would have been fine there. Some high school students are really driven in terms of grades and academics. Others aren't yet - they may be more social or just don't want to take a million practice SATs, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are actually less intelligent. In fact, when I look around me as an adult now, the really successful people come from all sorts of schools. I just say this because I think if a student gets into a certain school, they shouldn't worry about what "quartile" they will be in. The Ivies more than many schools take kids with special talents who may not be great all around students, not to mention that there is a different standard for athletes (of course some of them have high SATs, but they don't have to). So if you get in and you want to go, go and feel good about it and don't worry that everyone else is "smarter".</p>
<p>Catherine, I think both my kids who attend/ed ivies can attest to what you are saying. Of course, there are students who are just simply stellar, usually in a general area like math, science, language, or writing. And then there are kids who of course are smart, but what makes them stand out is some unique talent--in the arts, athletics or in some other area, often where their leadership or entreprenoreal skills or creativity really stand out. But it's not like everyone in the classroom is such an incredible shining star. And that's why it's so often said that many kids can do well (not just survive, but really do well) at an ivy.</p>
<p>I also have uneven SAT scores - 800 verbal, 660 math. However, math has always been one of my best subjects (got 5 on BC Calc in 10th grade, further study in differential equations, multivariable calculus, number theory, discrete math, etc). How would colleges look at this disparity between SAT score and actual mathematical knowledge? If it helps, I didn't study for the SAT, so maybe if I had I would have gotten a better math score.
Thanks!</p>
<p>The Math IIc exam would probably help a lot in resolving this dilemma. If you get a high score on that, then most schools would be willing to overlook your low SAT I math score as a fluke. If you don't, then there would be more doubt.</p>
<p>Why not retake the SAT? I'm sure with a bit of preparation you could easily get in the high 700's.</p>
<p>Well, I'm a transfer student (sophomore in college) so I don't think I can retake it now. Would strong performance in college math classes be taken into account?</p>