Which college (or profession, for that matter)?

College Search & Selection
1

Alright, so here’s my situation:

When I selected and applied to colleges last year, I had in mind that I would be majoring in engineering. Since a young age, I was very interested in both medicine and engineering, and I really enjoyed both building simple machines and learning about the human body. Until a couple years ago, I wanted to pursue a path in medicine to become a surgeon. Many people dissuaded me from pursuing medicine due to the high costs and long education times. Medicine was my top interest, but I eventually decided to pursue a more engineering-related course path in college, and I applied to top engineering schools during my college selection/application process.

Now, I was admitted to both University of Arizona and UT Austin for engineering (the two choices I have narrowed down). Last week I toured UT Austin and attended their engineering presentation, and I already saw just from the presentation and the rankings that UT’s engineering is superior to the UA’s.

The problem is that I do not live in Texas, so I have to pay out of state tuition that will give me a huge debt (even when establishing Texas residency) after I graduate. The UA gave me practically a full ride (as well as honors college admission), and my family is moving close by. However, to further complicate things, I still am interested in medicine.

Whatever I do, I want to have an IMPACT. Although it sounds cliché, I want to change the world. As an engineer, I would want to establish a start-up and put my ideas to life. From what I have heard though, the reality is different and there is not as much creativity and freedom in engineering as I would like to believe. A start-up has great potential and at UT they have resources that assist in establishing a start-up, although such an endeavor is incredibly risky and could place me in massive debt. With medicine, on the other hand, I would be saving people on a near-daily basis, and I may still be able to develop products through some amateur engineering skills (or perhaps even returning to school for nigh-classes in engineering?) or approach an engineering firm with an idea to put to life. (I apologize in foresight if some of this seems convoluted; I am not very familiar with the dynamics of the engineering word).

Due to my different passions, here are my possible planned courses of action:

Attend the UA for nearly free and major in anatomy/physiology as pre-med and join robotics/rocketry clubs for engineering supplementation and exposure (or maybe even minor in engineering, although I don’t know whether this is possible), or attend UT Austin for a high price and spend some time in the corporate engineering sphere before pursuing my own interests.

Now, I want to know from you what the chances are of getting into a top med school from the UA. I wish to go to a HYPS, Duke, or JHU-caliber med school after I graduate, and enter into private practice before attempting some more politically-related moves. From what I can understand, the pre-med institution does not particularly matter, and UA has a decent program since they are one of the 10 institutions in the nation that offer a dedicated degree to anatomy and physiology. I was also wondering how much “legacy” matters in med school decisions, since one of my close relatives is a HYPS-caliber residency program alumni.

A thing to take into consideration for me is that I have never built any really advanced machine, and calculus and advanced non-organic chemistry makes me slightly anxious. I also have a kind of “over-empathy” complex in that it makes me cringe/feel nervous when I see other people injured. For those of you who are doctors out there, did you ever experience something like this? And if you did, do you gradually desensitize as time goes on? I love to help and interact with others, but I know from my dad (a doctor) that it is both a very rewarding and stressful experience.

Sorry for the long post, but I really need advice!

Regards,
Pixel

2

You’re interested in med school, where the costs are enormous, so you need to save as much money as possible in undergrad. UT Austin isn’t a good option unless you want to rule out med school, and it doesn’t sound like you’re prepared to do that.

The task is to find the best academic plan at UA that will meet your goals. Were you admitted to the College of Science at Arizona? Or would you have to change majors from engineering?

3

Thank you for your response!

I was accepted as an undecided engineering major at UA, but I can change my major on their website. Additionally, I will contact my academic advisor to find what academic plan best suits me. Changing a major should not be a significant issue, since (to my knowledge) the engineering admission at the UA is more stringent than the pre-med admission.

4

No specific major is required to do premed. So you can do engineering as a premed, though your schedule would be crowded. Or you can stay in engineering for a semester or two to see if you like it.

Full ride makes a lot more sense than full pay out of state, unless college and medical school costs are pocket change to you.

5

Have you considered a major in biomedical engineering? This major might incorporate your engineering interests as well as prepare you for medical school.

6

I have thought about majoring in bioengineering, but I am not particularly fond of the non-organic chemistry in engineering, and calculus makes me slightly anxious. The UA has a good dedicated pre-med physiology major that is taught in the med school alongside med/graduate students, although its bioengineering program did not strike me as particularly phenomenal.

I would want to attain a PhD in addition to an MD in med school, and I am mainly interested in research areas of virology, epidemiology, and stem cell research/bio-materials research. Would you know if I would be able to pursue stem cell/bio-materials research in a PhD program, or is that more in-line with bioengineering?

Once again, thank you for your responses!

7

I don’t think biomedical engineering necessarily will require more chemistry than alternative majors, but it would require more math. I only suggested biomed engineering since both engineering and medicine were among your stated interests. Also, biomed engineering would seem to lend itself to developing products related to your medical interests.

If you’re interested in virology, have you considered a microbiology major (or, possibly, genetics or cell/molecular biology)? I’ve read that some aspects of materials/nano-engineering are relevant to some aspects of virology research.

Epidemiology is a subfield of public health.

Stem cell research might be more related to cell and developmental biology. Biomaterials research falls mainly under biomedical engineering. Tissue engineering aspects of biomed engineering might be relevant to some aspects of stem cell research.

8

Why wouldn’t biomedical engineering be a good way into med school? A friend of mine majored in something like applied math and went on to med school. If the grades and MCAT are good, I’d be surprised if an engineering degree would be anything but positive. But it is a big decision, I’d sure discuss it with an academic advisor. That seems like really sound advice.

9

The thing that worries me about biomedical engineering is that I am not particularly confident in my math skills. From what I have heard, engineering is a very difficult, math-intensive field, and med school admissions primarily look at GPA and MCAT scores. I like to build things and learn how machines/bodies work, but I am not very confident about the math part of engineering.

@zapfino - You mentioned that epidemiology, virology, and stem cell research are all part of other sub-domains of biology. If I go to the UA, I would major in anatomy and physiology, since that is their only major taught in the college of medicine alongside med/graduate students (and I like learning about the general structures of the body as well). Although the interests I listed were mainly related to more specialized majors, are they still a realistic research topic in med school? Or would the research opportunities be very different? I am not the most familiar with the exact workings of the system, so I would like to know.

Thank you for your replies!

10

You need to weigh out career outcomes with an engineering major versus a life sciences major. If med school doesn’t work out, your employment outlook will be quite a bit rosier in engineering. Also, as you know, the higher the MCAT score you achieve, the better your med school options. Engineering disciplines typically fetch some of the highest MCAT scores.

The flip side is that med school admissions are GPA intensive too, and I think you realize that the rigor of an engineering program often keeps GPAs down. If calculus gives you the willies, that’s something to consider in your quest for a decent GPA in engineering.

You will want to consider MCAT scores and the number of applicants by major, too. There are typically 10 times the number of biology majors writing the MCAT as, say, neuroscience, and biology performs significantly worse (on average). Based on your research interests, though, a major in molecular/cellular bio is sensible. It can be an advantage to head down the road-less-travelled in fields like biochem or neuroscience, however. Neuroscience can be linked to your interest in engineering through areas like robotics/prosthetics.

You can learn basic physiology/anatomy through any life sciences major, plus, there might not be as much advantage in doing a major within the med school as you think, in terms of research opps. I would want to know the number of students pursuing any given life sciences major. Your idea of attaching yourself to the College of Medicine might be overly popular among med school aspirants, so you might end up with better research opps and forging closer ties to faculty elsewhere. Get the numbers.

11

I am hoping med school will work out (as of now, I have top percentile test scores and A’s in my classes, so it seems relatively realistic), but you definitely raise some points to consider. The UA, if I recall correctly, is introducing a new MCAT preparation initiative, or so I have heard on my tour. You said “There are typically 10 times the number of biology majors writing the MCAT as, say, neuroscience, and biology performs significantly worse (on average).” Do you mean that people majoring in a strict biology-related discipline (say, microbiology), generally receive lower MCAT scores? Is there necessarily a disadvantage in pursuing a conventional biology major rather than a neuroscience/biomedical engineering major? Since I was given a near-full ride to the UA, I would come out with no/little debt, so my major decision has some elasticity to it in that I am not pressured to stick with something by the costs. You mentioned less research opps as well, but I was admitted to the honors college, and the honors program supposedly allows for increased interaction with professors and increased research opps (or so they say). I will try to brief myself on the numbers for the programs, and I will take a closer look at the coursework outlines for the anatomy/physiology major as well.

If I provide them, may you also take a look at the Anatomy/Physiology coursework as well? I do not want to major in a subject that I can learn from any other basic biology major.

UA A/P Course outline, classes:

http://degreesearch.arizona.edu/major/physiology (4-year outline - keep in mind that I would be doing the honors program)

http://physiology.arizona.edu/physiology-courses (Courses available)

Thank you for your response!

12

Definitely go with UA no matter what. You can’t beat full ride AND Honors college. Now your next step is a little bit trickier to jump. There’s a big difference between engineering and pre-med. Both fields require you staying on top of your studies and keeping that GPA up. You’ll be dealing with calculus anyways so prepare for that. (If you do med, brace yourself for organic chemistry.) Biomedical engineering SEEMS like it would be a nice compromise but you need to do some heavy research into the partially new field of engineering before diving into the deep end.

Instead of pigeonholing yourself to a certain path (premed/engineering) as soon as you get to college, do something more broad. Since it seems right now like you can switch majors pretty easily, I would do something like biochemistry, biology with either of UA’s offered emphases, microbiology, molecular/cellular biology, neuroscience, or POSSIBLY physiology. You can always arrange to take your proper courses for pre-med or engineering with one of those majors (or double major) down the road.

If you want to settle in the middle with research, that’s great too! Virology, epidemiology etc. are realistic emphases once you get more into med school. I personally feel like you need to deeply examine each option and analyze the pros and cons. You were initially into med school and you let people talk you out of it. Are you really into engineering or are you not sure? Don’t let things like cost/amount of years get in your head – by choosing a career like that, you are definitely signing up for A LOT OF SCHOOL. But that’s okay if that’s what you want to do and you will be able to achieve that with a free UG education.

So examine the pros and cons of engineering and medicine. They’re different fields. What do you see yourself as? I’ll put it to you like this. With engineering, you won’t be directly dealing with people with any ailments or anything like that. Sure, you can design a hearing aid for Martha and create a pacemaker that will eventually be placed in Earl, but your impact is more of a behind-the-scenes type of deal. You’re helping but you’re not interacting with the people you’re helping. As for medicine, you will be the one seeing the patients, helping them, diagnosing them, answering questions, and doling out (both good and bad!) news.

This is something you’ll have to look inward for. It’s nothing we strangers can advise you about. The one thing I do say is that you probably will not be able to major in engineering and attempt pre-med. Between the rigorous schedule and the crippling damage that engineering does to students’ GPA’s, you probably won’t be a strong contender for med school.

13

https://medschoolodyssey.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2010/03/30/some-statistics-on-the-mcat-and-your-undergraduate-major/

This data is from 2010 but I can’t imagine things have changed much. I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I mentioned it so you’re aware that some majors – the more quantitative majors that emphasize problem-solving skills rather than rote learning – typically perform better on the MCAT. These are averages, of course, and I’m sure there are plenty of high performing biology majors. The bio average is probably lowered because bio is the go-to major for a large number of med school hopefuls who, let’s face it, can’t cut it. So these averages are certainly dependent on the aptitudes of the students entering the various majors, along with any differences in the programs of study. You’ll find the same phenomenon with the LSAT and political science majors.

You can also see that microbiology is listed separately and scores a bit higher. Neuroscience and biomed engineering are there too. But again, this doesn’t mean that you will fetch a lower MCAT score as a bio major. You seem to have definite research interests, so you’re bound to be more passionate than other students who are studying biology with simpler aims, as a means to an end (med school).

There’s nothing wrong with the physiology major itself if you really want to go into greater depth in that area. What I meant was that intro physiology/anatomy can be learned from any major, so you have to assess your overall interest in the subject. You can also find (http://physiology.arizona.edu/undergraduate): “For the past seven years (2002-2009), the pre-physiology major has been one of the top five most popular majors selected by incoming UA freshmen, based on enrollment.” They mention that as a positive, but that stat would worry me because I wouldn’t want to be neck deep in med school hopefuls when I could be charting a more unique path in a smaller department with a potentially more rigorous major.

The honors program will definitely help. Email the departments of all the majors you’re interested in and ask for the number of students declaring each major. Look at the faculty numbers. That’s useful info for extrapolating where you’re liable to get the most attention as an undergrad, especially in a large research university.

Anyway, you have time to decide all of this, no? What do you need to decide in the next week? If you want to exit engineering, do you have to do that right away?

14

@TheDidactic - Thank you for your response! At this point, I think I will go UA to major in a biology-related discipline (or physiology). The engineering at Texas was impressive, but the campus - although still wonderful - was a little bit big for my taste. Additionally, the residence halls and student services looked a bit better at the UA. I appreciate your advice - I like to interact with people, and although developing products behind-the-scenes is rewarding, I would generally prefer to look in the eyes of the patient and provide active/direct help. As a pre-med major, I would probably join a robotics or rocketry club to gain some simple knowledge and experience in engineering.

@Dunboyne - Thank you for the advice! I’ll definitely investigate the numbers. I believe I have time to decide the major, but I have to decide between the colleges - UT Austin and UA - by next week. I will contact my academic advisor, but I believe that I do not need to exit engineering right away.
You make a good point about the amount of admitted students into the physiology major; however, we must take into consideration how many of those who registered actually continued the program (from what I hear, pre-med is a difficult track, and many tend to drop out). This retention rate is another question I should ask the UA about.
After pre-med, I would like to go to a prestigious med school - do you think I will be at a disadvantage, should I major in physiology? From what I hear, the pre-med university does not particularly matter - the GPA and the MCAT scores seem to be the main determinants in med school decisions. I like learning about how all the major parts of the human machine operate and interact (anatomy, physiology), but I also like to learn about other aspects of biology as well. My fear about anatomy/physiology is that I won’t receive the specific, problem-solving type knowledge of specific biology majors (such as microbiology).

15

Re: Post #8: “You mentioned that epidemiology, virology, and stem cell research are all part of other sub-domains of biology. If I go to the UA, I would major in anatomy and physiology, since that is their only major taught in the college of medicine alongside med/graduate students (and I like learning about the general structures of the body as well). Although the interests I listed were mainly related to more specialized majors, are they still a realistic research topic in med school?”

Yes, your stated research interests are all topics that can be pursued in med school, especially if you do an MD/PhD program. However, you’ll probably find down the road that you will have to choose which of these interests to pursue as each of them require lead you down their own specialized pathways.

I’m not sure there’s any inherent value in the fact that the anatomy & physiology major is taught in the college of medicine. At least, I don’t think that should be a primary consideration for choosing that major.

16

" As a pre-med major, I would probably join a robotics or rocketry club to gain some simple knowledge and experience in engineering."

This sounds like a great plan and it will still cater to your passions in both areas. Good luck to you! Like I said before though, possibly consider one of the majors I mentioned or a slightly different one in the biology-area. From what I looked at about the physiology major, it doesn’t seem like the BEST one for pre-med. @zapfino has a strong point.

17

Jut as an FYI, epidemiology is a math-intensive field, too - epidemiologists use advanced statistical modeling to do studies on large data sets. Now, the math is different - it’s calculus-based but statistics is a lot different from pure math and even from a lot of the math engineers use. But, still quantitatively intensive.

Also, usually med students who want to do research get some experience in med school but end up doing a post-doctoral fellowship after med school for 2-3 years. It’s partly training/educational and mostly work/research. Many postdocs also offer you the opportunity to earn an additional master’s - like in public health (so you could get one in epidemiology), or health services research, or clinical research, etc. Most of med school is concentrated on preparing you for clinical practice in medicine. Even if you went the MD/PhD route, it’s very very common these days for biomedical researchers to work as postdocs or research scientists for 2-4 years before getting a job as a full-time researcher or professor at a university.

The thing is, if you want to be pre-med you can major in anything. If you want a PhD in virology, epidemiology, or something doing stem-cell research, you need a related natural sciences undergraduate major - biology, chemistry, and microbiology are good choices; chemical engineering (which at UA is combined with biological engineering) could be a decent alternative, too. If you want epi, you also need to take some math. But you need to have the undergraduate preparation. Bio-materials research might want some prerequisites in physics and biology, with some chemistry; engineering could probably get you there. Basically, most of the majors you are considering will prepare you for most of the career fields you are planning to do research in.

Lastly, I don’t think legacy matters in admissions to residencies at all, and only minimally in admissions to medical school. After college, it’s much more based upon your personal accomplishments. Also, you don’t need to go to a top medical school - all med schools are good - if you want to do private practice, but if you want to do research and/or politics, then a top medical school can be advantageous.

18

Wouldn’t biomaterials research benefit from undergraduate study in materials science and engineering? Alabama does not have that, but it has metallurgical engineering.

Alabama does provide recommended schedules for pre-med students in various engineering majors. For example:
http://mte.eng.ua.edu/files/2011/09/BS_MTE_Pre_Med_Flowchart_Fall_2013.pdf
http://che.eng.ua.edu/files/2012/02/ChBE_FlowChart_Pre_Med_Option_3.pdf

19

Thank you for all the advice! I will definitely investigate some biology-related majors outside of physiology that interest me.

@ucbalumnus - by the UA, I mean the University of Arizona (I can’t blame you for mixing them up, sometimes I do as well).

20

Look into Statistics (which you need for both the MCAT and the premed core) and Bioinformatics as a minor. In any case, for the MDPHD route, you’ll need a solid understanding of statistics.