Which Colleges Did Current Broadway Performers Attend?

<p>Right, as I said, there are top talented students at EVERY college. You can be successful coming from ANY college. I firmly believe that. </p>

<p>What I was saying is that I would not give a college ALL the credit for turning out top talent when the college, due to its enormous selectivity in admissions, starts out with a high concentration of top talent from day one. I would expect a more significant number of success stories from that college than a less selective one, even though I expect success stories from EVERY college.</p>

<p>You do mention exceptionally talented students “self selecting” top programs but I am saying that some of the highly regarded programs themselves are self selecting very strong students because of the highly selective nature of their programs. They have lots and lots to pick from.</p>

<p>The actual leader in the Tony awards list from actor93 is “No Training” with 8 alumni. Assuming that this list is correct in that assessment, an economist might conclude (shudder) that the best cost-benefit path would be down that road, vs. say, $175,000-200,000+ at some of the “elite” MT BFA schools. Unlike law or medicine, where an advanced degree is an absolute requirement, thereby adding at least some fairly obvious, tangible value to degrees from “elite” schools, the ultimate currency in MT is talent. Of course training is still important and I am not arguing that MT schools are of no value, and I certainly intend to do everything I can to help my D attend the best program that she can get into, but it sure gives one pause to think about the possible value of MT-training-only programs like CAP21. And for those who may not be able to attend BFA programs, the statistics prove that you have plenty of opportunity to make your dreams of Broadway a reality (as always pointed out in CC threads).</p>

<p>At the risk of sounding silly, it seems to me that MT is sort of like Major League Baseball, where you can either take a path from high school directly into the professional ranks (generally via a farm system) or play college ball and then enter the pros. Which road you choose is based on a variety of factors and which path best fits your circumstances. Also, while attending a great “baseball school” doesn’t hurt, that is no guarantee you will make it to the pros.</p>

<p>There are many wonderful benefits to be derived from a college education (great training, expansive background knowledge for your craft, lots of shows where you have a decent chance to be a lead, bonding with fellow students and instructors, etc., etc.) and attending a top BFA program offers a chance to be part of a fantastic experience, but there are obviously many ways to follow your dreams in MT and failure to get into a top BFA program is never the end of the road. The Tony list seems to reinforce this idea.</p>

<p>I think the fact that so many received no training (or rather did not attend college for Theatre) and yet still are Tony Noms just goes to show that it is the individual’s talent, not the school they attend, that make the performer. Training is obviously wonderful and quite essential, but as these performers have demonstrated, if you’ve got it- you’ve got it.</p>

<p>You definitely can get to Broadway without a college education!</p>

<p>I will point out that SOME people with “no training” who have Tony nominations (or awards in the past) are from an older generation, when perhaps getting a BFA in MT wasn’t as typical as now. </p>

<p>An audition is surely about talent (not a degree)! In most cases, however, it helps to have TRAINING. Training increases the odds of having the skills to do well in an audition. However, training can be attained outside of a college setting. </p>

<p>As you say, getting a college education goes beyond the mere singing, acting, and dancing training itself. I know I value (as do my kids) an education in and of itself and not just for the job/career you may attain with the degree. College is not simply job training but it is about becoming educated. For those who care about education itself, a MT college program gives you an education for four years and not simply skill training. </p>

<p>Another issue is that very few make it on Broadway. Also, even making it professionally in theater involves difficult odds. A college degree will hold one in good steed for any future career, while at the same time offering MT training, whereas if you simply take voice, acting, and dance classes outside a college setting, then you are only trained to be a MT performer. A college degree on paper may help you get any sort of job, since getting on Broadway is not the typical outcome. The degree will open more doors overall, putting Broadway aside. </p>

<p>At some colleges, as well, there is a lot of networking in the MT industry. Speaking as the parent of a recent MT grad (class of 2008), not only did she get an education and also the MT training, she made many contacts and networks due to having attending her particular college that continue to this very day and continue to open doors and one thing leading to another and so on. Had she just gone to NYC on her own, I think she’d be in a different place as of this point. Attending her college benefited her in her career, not just in life or becoming educated. </p>

<p>You don’t need to go to college, or to a BFA program or a “top” program to become successful in MT. But by going to a BFA in MT program, you not only receive the training (it helps to have training from SOME source), but receive many other benefits that you may not get if you trained in MT another way. </p>

<p>In any case, I do not measure the value of the education/degree by what job you get after college. Going to college is of value in itself. If you happen to get a good job afterward, all the better, but it is not the only reason for going to college. </p>

<p>If someone wants to go into a MT professional career, it would greatly help to receive training, and a college degree is only ONE way to accomplish that, but not the only way. But someone in the audition pool who has solid training tends to have a better chance than someone with NO training. If you look at the list above of the Tony nominees, even if “no training” has the most tallies over any one single college, the fact remains that those with a college degree outnumber those with no training overall. :)</p>

<p>I cross posted with you, theatrenerd…</p>

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<p>Definitely agree that talent is what matters and not what school you attended!! And natural talent helps. But I still believe that training of some sort (need not be at a college) really helps too. </p>

<p>For example, many who enter very selective BFA in MT programs have natural talent. (look at the odds of just being admitted!) As a mom, I will admit that I think my own kid possessed that prior to college too. But I have seen what training can achieve after four years in a college MT program to really hone that natural talent and develop it even further. So, I believe training will help someone when they get to the professional audition circuit. Let’s just say that it can’t hurt. :D</p>

<p>However, I have always firmly believed that to be a successful MT performer, you need FOUR skills, not three. You have to be able to sing, dance, and act, but you also need the “it” factor and I don’t believe you can train for the “it” factor and you either have that or you don’t. The “it” factor is hard to define…I guess you could call it stage presence and what draws the audience to want to watch you (that is not a great definition).</p>

<p>PS…I should add that luck helps too! :p</p>

<p>@soosievt - But back to the cost/benefit aspects, $175,000-200,000 is a lot of money in a situation where the cost is not actually required (unlike an MD or JD) AND the “alternative employment” scenerios (i.e., what happens if you don’t “make it” financially in performance) offered by a BFA in MT are generally probably not very lucrative and in many locales may be pretty tenuous, at best. Certainly the support offered by a BFA MT for developing creativity on the part of the student is wonderful, but gee, the cost of the endeavor seems very high in relation to the possible payback…</p>

<p>An economist might argue that overall your risk/reward is actually slanted toward a BA MT given that it broadens your overall net expected benefit (due to raising your expected overall lifetime income potential - with a BA your chances of higher salary are probably more likely in a non-performing career), while, admittedly, possibly lowering your chances at stardom to some extent. As far as I can tell in looking at BFA MT curriculum, about 90 percent of it is limited pretty much to MT professional training and the other 10 percent is not what I would call broadly applicable in a non-performing-realted job. You certainly can argue that problem-solving, critical analysis and other valuable skills in addition to creativity are developed, but that might be a pretty hard sell to turn into non-performing job opportunities that justify the initial outlay.</p>

<p>I guess nowadays there are a lot of BFA MT parents that get to sing, “What I Did for Love” (and I will gladly be one!) and, as they say, “if you have to ask how much it costs…” Also, I think I am concluding that it pays to get some really solid objective advice from professionals in the industry on the chances your offspring’s talent before you jump into this at the college level (do they have the “it” factor), or at least understand what a long shot your kid is really looking at before you and your child decide to pay out gobs of money for the best training that money can buy.</p>

<p>In my mind, it certainly calls into question laying out lots of money for a mid-tier MT program vs. laying out a LOT less money for a program that is rated lower and/or for a program that seems to have potential to move up rapidly in reputation.</p>

<p>EmsDad, I guess I never quite looked at it in the way you are mentioning. I saw my kid as getting a college degree and while she hopes to have a career in musical theater (so far so good!), if she didn’t, that would be OK too because a college degree typically (no matter the major) is a pre-requisite for a lot of jobs. A lot of jobs that people have are not always related to their college major, but employers like to have educated workers and train them on the job (in some areas, not all). A theater major brings various skills to an employer…leadership skills, self-confidence, concentration, goal-orientation, self-discipline, ability to work under pressure, flexibility, ability to learn quickly, promptness, respect for deadlines, collaboration skills, motivation, commitment, creativity, problem solving skills, ability to take direction, and oral communication skills. So, like with ANY major, a person with a college degree is employable in many fields, not just the field of their major. As well, within the theater/arts field, there are many jobs that are non-performance type jobs where having a background in performance comes in handy (i.e., working in a casting office, working for a theater company, teaching theater to kids). So, in terms of JOBS, I felt that my kid’s college degree in MT was as good as any college degree. Many people do not work in the same field as their college major. </p>

<p>Also, not all college BFA programs are the same. At my kid’s college program (NYU/Tisch), there were a significant amount of liberal arts courses. My kid read and wrote many papers in college and didn’t just train in the studio. She became educated. She happens to also like academics. Not all BFA in MT programs are 90% training and so if this matters to your kid, seek out programs that have significant liberal arts as part of the degree.</p>

<p>Also, some people have more skills beyond performing on stage. I know my kid does…in her case, she is an excellent writer and also an accompanist, musical director, composer, teacher/coach, and can and does earn money doing those things, as well as performing on stage. She can do more than sing, act, and dance. Her four years in college involved gaining experience in all those areas. Maybe some other kid has a different combo of skills…like she has friends who trained as MT performers who also have experience (for pay) as directors, choreographers, costumers, stage managers, theater/music teachers, etc. all while they also pursue their performing careers. </p>

<p>While I hope my kid can continue to perform and work in the field of musical theater, I didn’t send her to college only with the goal in mind that she get a job in MT when she got out (let alone makes it to Broadway). I didn’t care what my kids majored in. They got fine educations. They pursued their interests. So far, every job they have held has been in their chosen fields. But if they weren’t and they got a different job, that would be OK too. </p>

<p>I never thought I was going to be sending my kid to college for MT and she’d come out simply waiting tables. I do not know what the future holds, but so far, every single job she has done since graduating college has been in theater and music. I would say that the majority of her friends she went to Tisch with are also doing the same. Some juggle theater/music with an unrelated survival job at the same time. Her so called “survival” jobs are all in the field of music/theater. </p>

<p>I feel every penny of her college education was worth it (will still be paying it out for a number of years to go) and I’d feel that way even if she never got a job in MT because she got an education and I feel that in both life and in terms of employment, an education will be beneficial. The idea of not going to college never arose in my kids’ minds. The goal was never simply to get a job. College by itself was worth it for its own sake. Fortunately, they have gotten jobs as well. My kids also know we will not support them when not in school and we haven’t (though we fully took responsibility for the time they were in college and they are not paying for it). </p>

<p>You mention the “payback” for the cost of attending a BFA in MT and to me, the payback has been that my kid received a really good education, as well as honed her MT training, had a great four years of growth, and is happy. No college degree is the guarantee of a job. I don’t measure college’s worth by the payback of what job is attained. That said, so far my kid is pursuing her dreams and in her area of passion and supporting herself in this field.</p>

<p>I think one’s view of all this might be skewed by whether one sees college as “job training” or as an “education.” I see it as the latter. A kid can major in English, History, Classics, etc. and these are not necessarily job training but they become more educated. An educated person is employable. The importance of one’s undergraduate major is not the main thing, in my view, but the overall education itself. I really don’t care what my kids majored in. They got an education and while in college, did concentrate in one area but also learned many other things too. Also, in today’s world, a college education is like a basic and one often goes to grad school and for some, education doesn’t stop with an undergraduate degree. My BFA in MT kid is not going to grad school (but some do!) and my kid who got a BA is going to grad school, as did my husband and I.</p>

<p>Thanks for a very well thought-out and well-articulated response.</p>

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<p>So I’m on the “end of freshman year” side of this and will have to say that the cost of the endeavor has certainly been worth the payback for my D already. At least if you consider that she is receiving great training from incredible faculty, surrounded by a terrific group of hardworking, fun-loving theatre students, in a supportive but challenging environment where she has been given opportunities to grow as a person and a performer. Whew! But I truly believe all of that. Have there been bumps in the road this year? Disappointments? Of course! That’s part of the learning and growing process. But this summer she will be working as a performer, living in an apartment with other performers, making enough to live and eat (most of the time anyway) and continuing her training with private lessons and dance classes.</p>

<p>True, we “lucked out” that my D didn’t pick a mega-bucks program and so we are able to pay without taking out loans. And this is just one point in time and we don’t know what the future will bring. All I know is that this has been a year of exploration and growth and reaffirmation that she is indeed on the right path for her.</p>

<p>Do I think that some day Coastal Carolina will be listed in one of the bios of a Tony award nominee? Based on the talent I have seen at that school, I don’t see any reason why that isn’t possible. But I don’t think that’s the real measure of the success rate of that or any other program.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that the price tag on a particular college doesn’t mean that’s what each person paid. My D’s program may be a “mega-bucks” one, but that is not what the cost was to us given financial aid / scholarships. I think our price tag at NYU wasn’t much more than (if at all) the one at Coastal Carolina. However, even if my kid went to CCU, we would have had to take out loans (we also have two children who were in college at the same time, not to mention paying for grad school for one).</p>

<p>(agree with you that Tony nominations is not the measure of success rate for any MT college program)</p>

<p>soozie - I was not implying that everyone pays the sticker price. We are not paying the sticker price at CCU, nor would we have had to pay that had she chosen NYU. But what we would have had to pay at several programs would have been in what we consider “mega-bucks” range based on the scholarships she received from those programs. And of course I think each family has to define “mega-bucks” for themselves.</p>

<p>Agree with what you wrote, austinmtmom. Often on CC’s MT Forum, people assume X college costs more than Y and since you mentioned “mega bucks” programs, I just wanted to clarify that sometimes the larger price tag schools, once scholarships are figured in, cost no more than the much cheaper price-tag schools. That was true in my D’s case (nothing to do with what a family can afford, but merely pointing out the true cost).</p>

<p>Unlike going to business school, I doubt anyone who pursues MT in college is expecting to graduate and make a lot of money. I always viewed MT as more of a vocation than an occupation. My definition of a vocation is…you just won the Mega Power ball…would you still continue to work in that field?</p>

<p>Regarding “top schools or programs” the one advantage of the “top” school is senior showcase. At the “top” schools many industry people show up and look to sign talent and in some cases book talent. I believe a successful showcase where the agents so up to see the graduates define a “top program”.</p>

<p>Regarding Sutton Foster and her one-year stint in college, many schools (as well as actors) list themselves as “grads” even though they never completed their education. I know Constantine and Kat McPhee list the Boston Conservatory as part of their education in their bios even though neither went past sophomore year. In fairness to all that worked their butts off and do possess a degree, I don’t think this should be allowed. It is lying about having a college degree. If they are given an honorary degree, that should be stated as well.</p>

<p>I haven’t read these particular bios, but often in someone’s bio, they may write: “attended X college” if they attended and never graduated. They may write, “BFA (or BA) X College” if they earned a degree at said institution.</p>

<p>For the record, here is Sutton’s Playbill bio:</p>

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[quote]
SUTTON FOSTER Broadway: Shrek (Tony nomination, Outer Critics Award), Young Frankenstein, The Drowsy Chaperone (Tony nomination, Ovation Award), Little Women (Tony nomination), Thoroughly Modern Millie (Tony, Drama Desk, Outer Critics, Astaire Awards), Les Mis</p>

<p>Here is Constantine Maroulis’ Playbill bio:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.playbill.com/celebritybuzz/whoswho/biography/18328[/url]”>http://www.playbill.com/celebritybuzz/whoswho/biography/18328&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>He lists BOCO under training (he did train there) but lists no degree.</p>

<p>Katharine McPhee’s “bio” on her own website says:</p>

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<p>[Katharine</a> McPhee Biography](<a href=“http://www.katharinemcpheeforum.com/katharine.htm]Katharine”>http://www.katharinemcpheeforum.com/katharine.htm)</p>

<p>I looked up the Playbill bios of two good friends of my daughter’s who were also in her class at Tisch and left Tisch without graduating and were on Broadway. Their bios do not mention NYU.</p>

<p>actor193, it’s kind of comforting to know that a good number of those guys had no training - at least from colleges or prof. training programs, since that’s sort of the route I’ll end up taking.</p>