which high school - how much of a factor?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Does anyone know, to what degree, colleges/universities factor in "which high school" a student graduates from?</p>

<p>On some of the applications, it asks if the high school is public, private, religious, etc. Also, each high school has its own unique collegeboard.com identifier. There must be some statistic that is monitored and tracked on the difficulty level of different schools. </p>

<p>Just for discussion sake, assume two identical students (which I realize is impossible) but assume two students whose numbers are identical on the numeric values (SAT scores, ACT scores, SAT II scores, GPA weighted, GPA unweigted, etc.). </p>

<p>Does one student have a stronger position if he/she went to a school with a more rigorous program, one with more students in a competitive standing (greater % of students taking AP and Honors classes, greater % with over 4.0 weighted GPA, greater % scoring over 1400 on SAT, etc.)</p>

<p>I don't mean to introduce factors into this thread, and into the website, that are beyond the control of most students. (i.e., most students now applying, really had no say in which school that they attended, and I therefore do not wish for them to think that they might be at a disadvantage - if they attended a school that was less rigorous. </p>

<p>However, it does make me wonder how much, if any, that colleges consider "which high school" a student attended.</p>

<p>thanks for any thoughts.</p>

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<p>I think the student from the better school would have the stronger position because it's much harder to get a good GPA at a difficult school than at a bad school. On the other hand, a student with a high SAT score from a not so great school would probably be more impressive.</p>

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<p>If a bad school is somehwere in rural area which does not send many students to college you can be sure such kid will be looked upon more favorably.
Stats alone won't be significant for many colleges specially LAC or small schools,many factors will come into play.</p>

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<p>For highly selective schools that can afford a close reading of applications, the HS can be a huge factor, but in perverse ways. If the HS and its quality are known to the adcom, it can only help. (with the exception of public exam schools).</p>

<p>OTOH, many state unis are pretty formulaic in their admissions process, although it is interesting to note that one of U. Mich's published admissions formula's included extra points for having attended a tough HS.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
However, it does make me wonder how much, if any, that colleges consider "which high school" a student attended.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It really depends on the specific college and it can cut both ways. Some colleges are actively trying to accept students from a broader range of underrepresented high schools rather than just taking more kids from the same old high schools that send them dozens each year.</p>

<p>The downside of applying from the traditional feeder schools is that half of your senior class probably xerox'd the same list of colleges to apply to.</p>

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<p>You can gain some insight into hs/admissions office interactions by reading The Gatekeepers, a very interesting book for all of us admissions-preoccupied parents. It doesn't definitively answer your question, but provides a lot of inside-the-room reportorial data. As others have said, it seems to cut several ways. The high school can be [ul][<em>]a known quantity, regularly sending kids to the school - a plus[</em>]that same known quantity, but with lots of kids from the same school applying, so more "hometown" competition - a minus (although some schools will claim it's not a factor)[<em>]a strong school, as shown on the school's profile re student performance, curriculum offered - a plus[</em>]a "lesser" school without the great offerings - can be a minus or a plus, because kids who have high SATs etc. from such a school are seen to have "risen above"[<em>]a school whose GC has the "ear" of certain admissions officers - can cut both ways: admission ofcr may trust the judgement of the GC, but admissions ofcr may ask the GC to rank the 2-12 (or whatever) applicants from that hs so depends on where your kid falls[</em>]etc., etc.[/ul]
At the very least, I think, the hs matters in all the "wholistic review" schools because the school evaluates the applicant in context - did he/she take the most challenging program available; is his her valedictorian status shared with 50 other kids from the same school?; what % of the kids have that 4.0 average...</p>

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<p>My daughter asked about this when visiting a college (not one of the super elites). She attends a public PA high school which has been in existence for only 5 years, so her class will only be the second graduating class. In addition, her school offers no AP or honors classes and has graduation requirements that are unusual (but specific to their mission as a PA high school). The director replied that they don't penalize students for the school they attend, since in most cases, they don't really have a choice. He said that if they have questions not answered when reviewing the information provided by the GC, or if they spot anomalies that need explaining, they'll just pick up the phone and call the school. He affirmed the observation that Jmmom made re: taking the most challenging coursework available.</p>

<p>After hearing this, my daughter requested that her GC provide additional explanations about certain aspects of her coursework (e.g. she maxed out the math and foreign language at the school, even though she only completed pre-calc and two years of foreign language).</p>

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<p>I somehow have the impression that at least some schools create a profile for students to include in their applications?</p>

<p>I'm guessing this profile might list the APs offered by the school, give statistics on percentage of graduates going on to four year programs, explain why or why not they weigh GPAs, how the GPA was calculated, that kind of thing.</p>

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<p>fendrock-- you are correct about the "profile".....schools publish a profile which can accompany a students materials sent by the HS, or its available online in some cases. It typically reviews many aspects of the school's placement and academic track-record (matriculation, SAT scores, National Merit, etc.), as well as the curriculum, especially availability of AP, IB, honors, etc, and grading/GPA policies.</p>

<p>here's a couple of examples, one private, one public:
<a href="http://www.pingry.org/admission/pdf/class2006profile.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pingry.org/admission/pdf/class2006profile.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.tesd.k12.pa.us/stoga/profile.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tesd.k12.pa.us/stoga/profile.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>ps.......for any parent who has not seen their child's school's profile, & who cannot find it on the school web page, I'd suggest asking the GC for one...its always an interesting thing to read.</p>

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<p>This is a rather old article about admissions. It does, however, offer a glimpse into the impact of the type and location of high schools.</p>

<p><a href="http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/1998/12/15/fp11s1-csm.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/1998/12/15/fp11s1-csm.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A few selected quotations: </p>

<p>Case A. "Is it a big group coming from this school?" Jackson: I have five or six earlies this year and they're all very strong." Stetson: "Let's grab him." Status: Admitted.
Elapsed time: 1 minute, 42 seconds.</p>

<p>Case B. Decision: Admitted. Key factors: He is from an "outreach" area where the school wants to encourage more applicants.</p>

<p>Case C. Decision: Accepted. Key factors: She's from an outreach zone in Florida - and she applied early or she could have been shut out by tougher competition in the spring.</p>

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<p>PapaChicken...I don't know if that public HS is your kids' school, but that is one very thorough school profile. I've seen a few from various clients of mine, many not nearly as comprehensive and still hard to interpret the transcripts. I can tell you that in my own kids' school, when my oldest was applying to college, I asked to see the school profile and was appalled at several GLARING errors....completely false and inaccurate that would be detrimental to any applicant and worked with the principal to get it fixed and updated to reflect what the school really does do. They fixed it though it is not nearly as good of a document that you just shared. I saw another reincarnation last year that has other errors on it now, not as bad as that first one but still not good but now, my kids left and no more involvement on my part. I won't get into specifics now but advise all folks to get a copy of the school profile so you know what is on it.....if it is correct or not....and I suppose if it doesn't have much information, you can always ask the GC to offer explanations of anything on the transcripts that need interpretting in his report. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>soozievt...no, no relation to either profile I posted, just found them during my "Top 20 matriculation lists" campaign & thought the Conestoga one was one of the best public school profiles I had seen. I found very few profiles from public schools in general on the web, and although conjecture, I suspect that overall, PS's are spotty in how complete or accurate their profiles might be (as you have pointed out), or if they exist at all. The magnet schools and those with a college prep mission were more represented in the profiles I found on the web, as one would expect. Good advice to anyone to check the profile of their child's school, no matter what kind of school they attend.</p>

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<p>PapaChicken, I second Susan's opinion on the profile. In the past, we have had a few threads where profiles were listed. I used to have a pretty good collection of links to profiles I liked. I'll try to dig it out, but it may be easier to recreate a thread. </p>

<p>I consider obtaining and evaluating the profile of a high school one of the most important steps, and one everyone should do as early as possible, and before starting high school if feasible. It is also important to monitor the year-to-year changes and verify the matriculation list, especially if it lists the information in a last 5 years or last 10 years format.</p>

<p>I hope that one day we may see a universal format as well as greater consistencies in the way schools report grades and curriculum. I am still baffled by the lack of progress on this issue. I believe that ALL public schools should report this information to a national registry and that private schools should be encouraged to do the same. One easy way would be to make the participation in PSAT or AP programs subject to the prior registration. Obviously, it would also require the use of a common transcript/profile and an end to the asinine number of different format. </p>

<p>I am not holding my breath as this would also have the unfortunate corollary to reduce the abject gamesmanship and creative reporting that plagues about every high school in the country.</p>

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<p>I hope which high school you go to makes a difference, otherwise I've spent a fortune for nothing! Seriously, I certainly get the feeling that colleges don't consider just the numbers but put them in context. The middle third of our grads go on to the top universities because our reputation is of a very challenging school and if you can make it here (as the song goes) you can make it anywhere.</p>

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<p>yes, it makes a huge difference, even with the publics. For example, Berkeley/UCLA may go 20 deep into a senior class at a high performing HS, but only 2 deep at a poor performing HS.</p>

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<p>The HS can either be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on the student, as others here have already pointed out. </p>

<p>Those at an advantage - Bright students at the very top of their class from a disadvantaged area or background.</p>

<p>Disadvantaged - the middle of the road HS and a kid that is not good at standardized testing scenario.</p>

<p>I know I may start a debate by saying this, but I don't necessarily agree that a top kid from a private school has that much, if any advantage over a similar kid from a high caliber public. People tend to forget that the population is preselected at many of the top privates. In addition, the students are prescreened in another sense, in that they are the children of successful individuals who are more likely to be bright and have bright kids to begin with.</p>

<p>We seriously considered sending S to a well known selective private HS. In the process of looking into the whole thing, we got one of those school profiles that detailed the SAT scores, college acceptances over the past years and more. Then we did the same thing at the (admittedly excellent) public school. There was absolutely no difference in outcome, if you happen to base outcome on college acceptances. So, to us the criteria then shifted to whether or not the education and the preparation for college would be any different, and again, we had to say no. The teachers at the public were better paid and better educated. Even average class size was exactly the same! In the end we let S decide for himself, and he made the choice to stay put in the public school, a decision that neither he nor his parents have regretted. Bottom line is a bright kid can do well anywhere. The privates have a higher proportion of them, that's all. </p>

<p>Are there good reasons to make the choice to go private? Many public schools are substandard, certainly (that was true for us during some of my children's elementary years and we did go private then). Even if that's not the case, there are kids that may benefit for many reasons (social etc.). In making the decision to go private, people shouldn't take it for granted that they are getting as much of an advantage in college admissions as they imagine. Especially, if you are a loyal reader of CC ;)</p>

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<p>Roshke - Congrats that things have worked out for you, and your S. You are to be commended on making the right decision, or letting your S make the right decision. However...</p>

<p>I am not expert on statistics, and can only speak for our state, and more specifically for our local community, and the public and private schools near us. Many of the stats that you mention are not the case in our community. </p>

<p>We chose a private school, over the local public school </p>

<p>Total school population: The local public school has over 2,100 students. Our private school has about 400 (boys only).</p>

<p>Class size: my son is in a AP Physics class with 13 total students. Average class size for all classes is around 20. My S has never been in a class with over 30. At the public school, the average class size is about 30. </p>

<p>Population preselected? At the Pvt school, there ARE some students whose parents went to the same school. However, most did not. I did not go to a private high school, nor did my wife. I am not overly successful. My EFC is in the 20k range (not rich by any means). Yes, some students have parents who are quite successful. One of the luxeries of being rich (for them) is being able to send their kids to a school with smaller class size, etc. For my wife and I, we have had to pass up getting new cars, and pass up taking fancy vacations - because for us, it was the best use of our limited funds (to send our S to the best possible school). We have watched friends and neighbors, who chose the huge public school for their S & D, as they have gotten new cars far more often than us, and have taken several enjoyable cruise vacations (while we have never been on a cruise). It is a matter of priorities. Different strokes for different folks.</p>

<p>SAT scores: I would like say "you have got to be kidding" - but i do not know your local area, so will trust your information to be accurate. Here, it is night and day. First, the public school only has 35%-40% of their seniors even take the SAT. At my S school, over 90% take the SAT. His school SAT average was more than 50 points higher than all public schools in our county (not just the local one that my S would have attened). If you consider that for the public school, in which 35%-40% even took the SAT, that those were probably the students most motivated, and who probably would have scored the highest had 90% of the public school taken the SAT. If you take the highest 35%-40% at my son's school, then that average score is over 150 points higher than the public schools. </p>

<p>College Acceptances?: Again, you must live in a very nice area, for your public school to have the same acceptance numbers as the private school. At the local public school, only about 50% even go onto college. At our S's school, the rate is over 90% going to college. It would take too much space to list the schools that they are accepted at, but in summary, many of USNEWS top 10 accept kids from his son. </p>

<p>Better paid, and better educated teachers: I do not know the salaries of the teachers at our private school, nor at the public school, so based on salary, you might be correct. I do know that an awful lot of them (at my son's school) have Master's degrees, and a couple have their doctorate or MBA degrees. I do not know the number of teachers at the public school with advanced degrees. I do not that our teachers our very available (email and phone). We have multiple meetings each year with our teachers. I have heard sad stories from friends who have a difficult time reaching the teachers at the local public school.</p>

<p>Subject Area: You did not bring this up, and I do not wish to get into a social debate, but one of the big factors for why we chose this high school, is that they focus on the basics (Math, Science, History, Literature, Writing, and all other courses that will prepare a student to get into a good school.). From what we hear from friends, the local public school spends far too much time on "other" issues that academics. </p>

<p>Lastly, I do not wish to get into a debate on belief systems. But, I will bring this up as a closer. Both my wife and I had tears come to our eyes when we found out, that on September 11th, 2001, the students at my son's school went to the Gym, and the principal got down on his knees, and led the student body in prayer. We knew, at that point, we had made the right decision.</p>

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<p>lovetocamp - Actually, I don't disagree with a thing you just said! If we were choosing between the two options you are describing, there is no doubt in my mind as to where I would send my kids, even if it were a sacrifice. But in an area where there is NOT as big of a differential, there are a lot of people who still think that private is always better in terms of college placement. It's just not always the case when comparing kids of comparable ability.</p>

<p>You are correct in your assessment of the area where we are. But there are STILL some who feel that they are "buying" an advantage in college admissions to send their kids to the well known privates. My research did not back that up.</p>

<p>As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of intangible reasons to send your child to any given school, whether public or private, secondary, college or university. But in this case, I was just addressing the question (and only a small part of it)- Is the HS your child goes to a factor?</p>

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<p>I tend to agree with Roshke here. I would not pick private school with the motivation that it would get my child into a better college. I am not against private school whatsoever. But I think the reason to send the child should be because of the child's needs being met better there or some factors about the school that would work better for the child....For example from LovetoCamp.....big difference in class size between his child's two options (for the record, my child's AP Physics class in public school was the size of your child's private school class but I can appreciate that in your circumstances, the difference in class size with your public is significant). I can't see choosing private school with the perception that it would get my child into a better college. In my view, the student gets into college and if the student is worthy of admission, it doesn't matter which school he/she went to. I don't think my kids would have gotten into better colleges had they gone to a private school. They would have had a different EXPERIENCE, however. I agree with Roshke that qualified students can be found ANYWHERE but that private schools simply have a higher PROPORTION of such students that will go onto highly selective colleges. I am convinced that the best students in our unknown public rural high school would rival the students at an elite prep school in terms of academic skills and other achievements. We simply don't have as many kids like that in one school. But these kids are surely capable of going to an elite private prep school but their parents didn't send them out of choice and/or can't afford it. Here, to go to private school, pretty much means boarding school, too. Some parents do it and some for the reasons that lovetocamp is mentioning.....to get into a really good college. But those same kids could have gotten into thsoe colleges coming from our high school. The difference is that their high school experience would have had differences in the learning environment. There are very valid reasons why someone might choose a private school over their public.....if their kid would thrive more, like it more, and even reasons lovetocamp gave about either philosophy, class size, etc. Picking a high school should be about which one would be best for your child to experience, but not about which one could get him into which college. If he was meant to go to a certain type of college, he can achieve that from anywhere. While our HS does not have this impressive list like your private has as to where everyone ended up at college, nor the percentage going onto colleges, we do have some students at prestigious colleges who are thriving, exceling and fully capable of being in the student body and even standing out from time to time. Private schools seem like wonderful experiences and I am sure my kids would have greatly enjoyed some of the prep schools I know about, but I don't believe their college outcome itself would have been any different. The private schools would have been worth going to for OTHER reasons, I'm sure. However, we weren't about to send our kids away for high school and feel they made the most of opportunities here, did well, and it all worked out fine.</p>

<p>Also, Roshke makes a good point that you can't generalize because each family's options differ. In Roshke's case, there were not a lot of differences and in lovetocamp, there were reasons that seemed significant...such as the class size or prayer vignette, whatever. I would not have used the percentage of kids going onto college as a factor in the decision, because in our school, while only 66% go to college, my kids were in the most demanding courses which were made up of bright motivated students. It didn't matter if others in the school were not college bound as they did not share academics with them. And in some ways, my kids were exposed to diverse backgrounds and not a school full of kids all heading to the same colleges. </p>

<p>I think it is more important to have a good HS school situation, but other than that, I would not pick the school as to which college it might get my kid into. And even if the HS is not the best (such as our HS), find ways to make the best of it.....accomodations, enrichment, etc. A certain kind of kid is gonna make it no matter which high school they attended. Our HS may not have been the best, but I have no disappointment about where my kids went to college and in fact, I feel their goals and dreams have come true. Small beginnings....but with motivation and drive, you can achieve great things. It's about the person, not the school.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>This mirrors the experience of our middling quality, large public high school in California. The super-selective colleges seem to take only from the top 1% of our class of 700 (if you are an AA candidate, you can be from the top 5-7%). </p>

<p>Colleges are willing to dig much deeper into the class for admits if the quality of the high school is high. Still, I am sure that there is a limit as to how far into the ranks any selective college is willing to dig.</p>