<p>I really think it depends on the major. We know quite a few Cornell students and the pre-med and Eng students report a very tough and competitive environment. Teachers hand out very few As. But this is not true for all majors. And maybe not for all students.</p>
<p>What has been said here about Yale, Harvard, and Stanford corresponds to my experience from years ago: Yale -- lots of intellectual stimulation and hard work, very little frenzy or cutthroat competition; Harvard -- basically the same, but lots of one-upsmanship in ECs and a certain pressure to carve out your niche; Stanford -- very relaxed atmosphere that was a combination of people actually doing a little less work than they would have elsewhere and people pretending that they did a little less work than they actually did. My sister was an undergraduate at Stanford when I was in grad school there, and it took her a while to figure out that lots of people were working and studying in secret.</p>
<p>Chicago, based on my daughter's experience, is not at all cutthroat, but often quite frenzied and tense. In general, she is not a frenzied, tense person, but she has gotten frenzied and tense (along with everyone else she knows) at the end of every quarter she has had there.</p>
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combination of people actually doing a little less work than they would have elsewhere and people pretending that they did a little less work than they actually did.
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The situation hasn't changed JHS. I personally don't hide the amount I work but I find myself one of the few who do. Most people never mention how much they study or how hard they work!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Chicago, based on my daughter's experience, is not at all cutthroat, but often quite frenzied and tense. In general, she is not a frenzied, tense person, but she has gotten frenzied and tense (along with everyone else she knows) at the end of every quarter she has had there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Right. But, show me a college student, at any college, including the community college down the street, who doesn't feel "frazzled and tense" during exam week when all the papers are due.</p>
<p>So, if that is the case for all college students (and I believe that it is), then aren't we really just talking about bragging rights? UChicago students perpetuate an image of intense workload as a matter of pride, much like UNC-CH students talking about the basketball team.</p>
<p>I do think there are differences is college workloads for the "average" student at each school. However, individual differences dwarf institutional differences. I'm sure that you would find that a 4.0 Engineering major at the biggest slacker school in the country is working just as hard and is just as "frazzled and tense" during exam week as anyone at UChicago or Swarthmore.</p>
<p>I also find the following quote from Quiltguru to be a flat out wrong and frankly, more than a little infuriating, --as if a rumor her daughter heard when making her college choice makes it so.
Quote:
"I will repeat: Yale. I know there are other such schools as well. In my daughter's opinion (one of the reasons she eventually chose Y over H), Harvard is not one of those schools."</p>
<p>My son is a soph. pre-med at Harvard. So, if anyone would be exposed to the so-called "cut-throat" environment, he would be. I have asked him repeatedly about his experience, and he describes a completely cooperative environment in his classes both this year and last--for example, he and his classmates collaborate on problem sets and when studying for both his Organic and Cell Bio courses. He has never encountered anything in the realm of destructive competitiveness---in fact, his experience is competely to the contrary. And let me also say that he has recently expressed to me what an amazing place he continues to find his school, and his conviction that he made the best choice possible (for him).</p>
<p>A final note: Harvard is not in any way a laid back place when it comes to work load and grading. Frankly put, these kids work their butts off. My daughter, who went to Brown, also worked very hard, but I do agree that the pass/fail option (however, which many, like her, didn't want to use because of how grad schools would view it) can make it less stressful. Both my kids took/are taking the pre/med curriculum. While my d. felt and was told that her Organic class had a very advanced level curriculum, when conferring with my son, she said that he was learning things that went beyond her course.</p>
<p>interesteddad: I certainly wasn't bragging about the atmosphere at Chicago, or suggesting that there is any difference between Chicago and Swarthmore in this regard. I was really emphasizing the distinction between having a hypercompetitive "cutthroat" student culture (not at Chicago, as far as I can tell) and having a laid-back, low-stress atmosphere (also not at Chicago).</p>
<p>
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I certainly wasn't bragging about the atmosphere at Chicago
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</p>
<p>I know you weren't. I was just expressing that it would be difficult to find a college where students aren't "frazzled" during exams. If there is any difference among schools, it lies in the percentage of the student body that is actually engaged in academic learning.</p>
<p>By the same token, I'm amazed when people say they want to find a school where they can pay $40,000 a year to not be academically challenged.</p>
<p>As I recall, Quiltguru's daughter chose Yale, her SCEA school, easily over Harvard. It's unclear why she applied to Harvard at all, since Quiltguru has rarely had a kind word to say about the school. In fact, I believe that her daughter did not even choose to go to Accepted Students Days at Harvard to see what it was actually like.</p>
<p>I am sincerely glad that her daughter is so happy at Yale. My daughter would have been too; in fact, she loved Yale when she visited. I do not have a bad word to say about the school. Of course she also loved Wesleyan ... and Vassar ... and Columbia... and about twenty-five others. You can only apply to <em>so many</em> though.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that you can only go to one school, so if you are lucky enough to have options, it's important to do your best to choose wisely, based upon your own likes and dislikes. However, there's no reason to badmouth the others, especially without firsthand experience.</p>
<p>Quote:
"The bottom line is that you can only go to one school, so if you are lucky enough to have options, it's important to do your best to choose wisely, based upon your own likes and dislikes. However, there's no reason to badmouth the others, especially without firsthand experience."</p>
<p>Well put, Twinmom. Thank you.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>It's unclear why she applied to Harvard at all, since Quiltguru has rarely had a kind word to say about the school.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>A Yalie badmouthing Harvard...imagine that....</p>
<p>perhaps it would be more helpful to note the schools where students study together or where grades are not the main focus.
While Reed does have a curve, which can be * harsh*- students don't know their grades, unless they make an appt with their advisor to see them ( which many never do), and while they do like to moan and groan about who has the most reading/least sleep, they are pretty supportive of one another.</p>
<p>There is a cookie fairy dispensing goodies in the library at finals and upperclassmen writing their theses or studying for their qual even have been known to show * some* sympathy for those writing their 17th Hum110 paper. ;)</p>
<p>"Stanford chill" is a stereotype, but it's mostly true.</p>
<p>And superwizard, I'm surprised you're finding the so-called "duck effect" to actually exist. I've never noticed it.</p>
<p>
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And superwizard, I'm surprised you're finding the so-called "duck effect" to actually exist. I've never noticed it.
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It's not as if people hide how much they study they just don't mention how much they study. My high school friends were always whining about how much the studied for an exam etc etc etc. It isn't that big of a deal really just something I've noticed.</p>
<p>Many of the all women's colleges are noted to be very supportive of students...both from the faculty helping students and students helping students. Wellesley struck us as being this way last year. My D has a friend at Bryn Mawr who loves the supportive, open environment.</p>
<p>Actually, twinmom, my D didn't go to the Harvard Pre Frosh days because she had already visited a friend of her who is now a Harvard sophomore earlier that year. And she did look very carefully at Harvard, but found that the Yale offered the double concentration in Chemistry and Music that the Harvard admit office told her was not possible at Harvard. Her decision was very much colored by the Harvard admissions officer who told her that they could envision a double concentration in Physics and Music, but just didn't think it would be "at all possible" to double concentrate in Chemistry and Music as no one had ever done it before and the adcom couldn't imagine a thesis which would incorporate both majors. Frankly, Yale's admissions officer told her, and I quote, "Double in Chemistry and Music? Sure! Bring it on!" It was rigidity of the adcom's attitude of the Harvard adcom which made the school not attractive to her.</p>
<p>And my comment about the lack of faculty support for undergraduates at Harvard actually came from my D's friend who is a student there and was not an original comment on my part. It was not at all meant to be as snarky as your post reflected.</p>
<p>Well, I can't envision a thesis that combines chemistry and music, etiher. Joint concentrations at Harvard require that the two subjects be combined through a senior thesis, not merely studied separately. Physics and music, math and music are quite dobale. In fact, a senior thesis called Les Phyz was written about Physics 16, the advanced freshman physics class, and is performed every year now.
The curricular review is going so slowly that S will not be affected by it, except insofar as secondary fields have been approved. Unlike joint concentrations, they will not require senior theses combing the two different majors.
As for unsupportive faculty, it takes two to tango. Some faculty may not offer as much support as students would like, but other faculty do their utmost to encourage students to come to their office hours, email them, etc... with not a lot of success. I strongly doubt that the situation is different at Yale, or elsewhere. I remember from my own college days, meeting with my advisor once a year. My own fault, not hers. And I was not at Harvard.</p>
<p>That joint thesis requirement must be new. My husband majored in biology and physics (which could easily have encompassed a single thesis), but he didn't have to write a thesis for either major and still got to graduate with honors. My major required a thesis no matter what so I was crazed for much of the spring!</p>
<p>I think that joint concentrators must write a senior thesis and fulfill a double set of requirements. For some concentrations, some courses can double count, making it easier (e.g. math and physics, or biology and physics--except that now there is a biophyiscs program). I think it would be tough having a joint concentration in two very disparate fields, each one with 12 required semester courses. Secondary fields will require only some courses, perhaps 6, perhaps more depending on departments.
I think physics still does not require a senior thesis for honors. I don't know about biology.</p>
<p>Quiltguru: It's unfortunate that your daughter's friends who chose Princeton and Harvard are not completely happy at their schools. However, I'm sure we can all agree that no one place is perfect. Some have better advising, some have better locations, some have better financial aid initiatives, etc. etc.</p>
<p>This year, my daughter had lunch with one of her professors and went to office hours to meet with another. Many of her friends did not choose to contact any professors, so I suppose that if their friends from home asked, they'd say that there's little contact with faculty. Students do much to add to their own experiences.</p>
<p>I think the comment most of us Harvard parents bristled at was the suggestion in post #16 that Harvard has a cutthroat or non-cooperative atmosphere. I didn’t read that comment to say anything about Harvard’s unwillingness to accommodate quiltguru’s D’s intended double concentration (which is certainly a legitimate but very individual concern) or to say anything about limited faculty contact. </p>
<p>As for my own D’s experience as a freshman at Harvard, she has found her classmates to be exceptionally friendly and cooperative. No one talks about grades. She is in study groups for two and sometimes three of her classes, and everyone gladly helps out others with problem sets and other matters.</p>
<p>There is stress, to be sure. That stress comes from trying to balance a challenging course load, a time consuming extra curricular and a full social life. I think it also comes from her tendency to procrastinate, which I suspect she would do no matter where she went. </p>
<p>Regarding faculty contact, my D has had more than she has sought, and we’ve been very please with what has been offered. One professor even emailed her individually one evening to make sure she was okay, because she had not seemed to be her usual self during class. I have actually been astounded and very pleasantly surprised at how much contact and support has been offered by the faculty.</p>