<p>The ideas were clearly firmly rooted Sheed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
O sorry Sheed, I cannot form my own opinions about the Koran b/c, I do not speak ARABIC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then don't talk about it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
By the way, the jahiliyyah is any non-Islamic state.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually it means ignorance (specifically ignorance of god, and is repeatedly used to describe the citizens who lived before the time of the prophet Muhammad.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The ideas were clearly firmly rooted Sheed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ideas composed by some crazy radical does not do anything. If Qutub's books were actually influential to an extent that mattered, then his saying could actually be taken in to consideration. Consider the communist manifesto which you repeatedly write about. THAT was considered a book that mattered, influenced a lot of people, and in many ways changed the course of the world. Now ideas have always been around but the fact is not all of them are always implemented. The fact is that these ideas have been implemented with America AFTER we took a major part in the middle east, with helping Israel and setting up bases in S.A., and more. You still haven't shown me any proof</p>
<p>
[quote]
"You say they've been taking certain ideas and implementing them as they will since the 1960s. I would love to see ONE time that any muslim extremist took action against any thing at all in America before we set foot in the middle east."</p>
<p>This does not relate to America, but how about the Muslim advances on Europe before the Crusades. Thank God, Urban the II called the crusades or we would all be speaking Arabic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>CRUSADES?????????? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? Do you know when America became a country? what do the crusades have to do with American politics....whatever, dont even answer that..</p>
<p>The Crusades displayed the radical Muslim aggression, aggression that has resulted in terrorism.</p>
<p>Are you saying Christians never fought and were never the aggressors? I am not going to argue with someone who obviously has no idea what he's talking about.</p>
<p>Mrcrowley-</p>
<p>Please, go crawl into a hole somewhere and leave the rest of the world alone. Ignorance is acceptable. Ignorance with refusal to learn, however, is not. You live in an age of the internet, when all the knowledge of the world is at your fingertips. Please, actually go READ about some of this stuff you claim to be knowledgeable about. It is utterly reprehensible that you refuse to educate yourself</p>
<p>You're repeating the myth that Islam is based around conquering other nations, which is utter ridiculous. If you knew anything about history you would know that for a large part of it's history, Islam was spreading by itself, without the benefit of an army behind it. People emulated Islam because the Muslims were the dominant power then, much as Western culture is now being spread because we're the dominant culture in the world.</p>
<p>The Muslims have a word for Christians, Jews, and other people of similar faith - "dhimmi," it means People of the Book. The Muslims realized that Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and the Muslims themselves all believe in the same god. "Dhimmi" reflected that belief and they could do basically whatever they wanted in Muslim land, as long as they paid the same taxes that everyone did - only, at a reduced rate. Other religions that were not "People of the Book" were not so lucky, but this is just as true of Christians as it is of Muslims (see Salem Witch Trials).</p>
<p>Since you're so fond of quoting the Qur'an, try these on for size:</p>
<p>"And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit."</p>
<p>"And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account."</p>
<p>"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."</p>
<p>"Say (O Muhammad ): 'O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God.'"</p>
<ol>
<li>Obama</li>
<li>Clinton</li>
<li>Edwards</li>
<li>McCain</li>
<li>Bloomberg (if ONLY HE'D RUN FOR PRESIDENT!)</li>
</ol>
<p>Don't call me ignorant. I would appreciate if you would stop calling me that when your arguements on the greatness of the Democratic party and socialism were clearly exposed.</p>
<p>As for Sheed, I am not saying that all Muslims are evil and want to conquer the world. What I am saying is that some lines in the Koran, when taken literally promote violence. It is these lines that the Muslims invoked when they slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Christian pilgrims. It is these lines that the Muslims invoked when they went on a conquest of France, it is these lines that the Muslims invoked as they conquered the Byzantine empire and Constantinople, it is these lines that Sayyid Qutb used, and finally, it is these lines that inspire the president of Iran as well as Osama bin Laden.</p>
<p>Christianity, on the contrary, has not had nearly the aggression that Islam has. The Crusades were partly an act of self-defense against the Muslim aggression on all sides of Europe. Even before the Crusades, the Muslim empire almost beat Charles Martel in 732, and then would have been able to conquer Europe. These conquerers did not go under the banner of U.S.A., England, or even Iran. No, these conquerers, Sheed, went under the banner of Islam, Allah, Muhammad, and, the Koran. </p>
<p>These conquerers believed that they religion promoted conquerering and slaughtering other people. Though these conquerers were nice in some instances (the dhimmi), they were not nice in their military conquest all around Europe.</p>
<p>The Muslim empire, yes an empire centered around religion (cannot say that about Christianity, unless you consider Charlemagne's brief reign), experienced the largest geographical expansion of any empire in the history of the world. Unfortunately, much of this expansion involved military conquest and ruthless slaughtering, acts that Muslims have continued to this day under the banner of Allah, Muhammad, and the Koran.</p>
<p>Btw, sheed, I find it funny that you are posting verses of the Koran when you clearly reprimanded me for doing it.</p>
<p>Unless you speak arabic, but you still cannot deny the aggressive nature that the Muslim faith inspires.</p>
<p>Though we have multiple causes of genocide in Africa, a major cause is the Muslim aggression.</p>
<p>Each week, I mourn the loss of many Catholic missionaries in places like Indonesia, where they are senselessly slaughtered in the name of Allah.</p>
<p>By Amitai Etzioni - November 12, 2002</p>
<p>On October 17, bombs killed 6 people and wounded 143 in Zamboanga, the Philippines. While press accounts mentioned in passing that the victims were Christians, few conveyed to the reader that these were people assaulted by Muslim extremists because of their religion. On September 25, militant Muslims shot dead 7 Christian Pakistanis execution style in Karachi. Most of the media failed to report this at all, though it was at least the fifth bloody attack on Christians in Pakistan in the last twelve months.</p>
<p>And the media almost never point out that Christians are being killed, often at places of worship, in several countries with Islamic majorities or governments, not because they are Westerners or Americans (many are neither) but because they are Christians. Nor is the White House or Congress nearly as attentive--to put it mildly--to this pattern of killing as it is to any injury on either side of the conflict in Israel.</p>
<p>People who follow international news are aware that a civil war raged in Ethiopia for more than 30 years. But few realize that it was a religious war--between Muslim Eritrea and Christian Ethiopia--in which tens of thousands perished. Many know that the people of East Timor were savaged, but it is rarely mentioned that most East Timorese are Christian, while the Indonesian militants who killed many of them and brutalized the refugees in West Timor are Muslim. Indeed, Christians in other parts of Indonesia have hardly fared better; for instance, thousands died during riots in the Moluccan Islands in 2000.</p>
<p>The bloody war in the Sudan, similarly, pits the Muslim government in the North against the Christian and animist South. And in Nigeria, as Muslims try to impose a strict version of the legal code called sharia in several provinces, armed conflicts between Muslims and Christians have erupted and thousands have died. Just lately, in the Ivory Coast, Muslims in the North have been attacking Christians in the South. On a smaller scale but very much along the same lines, scores of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt in January 2000; several churches were burned in Kenya the following year.</p>
<p>It seems somehow inflammatory to point to the religious element of these and many other conflicts. Nearly every day, meanwhile, some scholar assures us that Islam is a peaceable and loving religion. What is going on here?</p>
<p>From the beginning, Islam drew a distinction between Christians and Jews and other non-Muslims. The former were "people of the book." They had to pay special taxes and wear identifying clothing, yet their status reflected a certain respect for what Muslims saw as the earlier but incomplete and corrupted revelation recorded in the Bible. In the modern period, Christians and Jews are typically called Kuffr, or infidels. In countries under strict sharia, apostasy is a capital crime, and in the minds of extremists like Osama bin Laden, infidels too deserve death. While Muslim societies differ widely in their levels of tolerance, pluralism, and religious freedom, full respect for Christianity is virtually absent.</p>
<p>This matter came up last spring at a conference held by Iranian reformers in Isfahan. The gathering brought together a number of Islamic and Western intellectuals in opposition to the thesis advanced by Samuel Huntington of Harvard University that Western and Islamic civilizations are bound to clash. During his presentation, Ebrahim Moosa, an imam from South Africa now teaching at Duke University, urged that Islam be recast so as to accommodate liberal attitudes. He stressed the need for three changes: recognition of women's equality with men; toleration of capitalism; and recognition of the full dignity and humanity of nonbelievers. But we are still waiting to hear from many other Muslim leaders as to whether they wish to move Islam in this direction.</p>
<p>The White House has solid tactical reasons for stating and restating that our fight is only with terrorists, not Muslims. We must face the fact, however, that while the prophet has many moderate followers, the terrorists command great sympathy in the Islamic world not only because Islamic populations are anti-American or anti-Western, but also because the terrorists are attacking infidels. An elderly Afghan freed from detention at Guantanamo last week made a telling statement to a Washington Post reporter: "The Americans treated me well, but they were not Muslims, so I didn't like them."</p>
<p>It is true that other religions have passed through violent and intolerant phases. And it is possible that moderate interpretations of Islam may again come to predominate. But we shall be unable to recognize and foster that development if we refuse to acknowledge that the violence currently erupting in many parts of the Islamic world is aimed not simply at the political and economic leadership of the West but also at its Judeo-Christian tradition. When Christians and Jews are no longer characterized as Kuffr, we shall know we have turned a corner.</p>
<p>So much for protecting the dhimmi Jarn.</p>
<p>Explain to me where Christianity, specifically Catholicism, endorses or inspires similar behavior.</p>
<p>Tell me when the Christian empire conquered other nations to expand their faith. </p>
<p>Do not use the crusades because I will simply make the valid point that the Crusades was, for all intents and purposes, a defensive war. Had the Muslims not threatened Byzantine empire or the Christians in France, Urban would have never called the Crusades.</p>
<p>Find another example.</p>
<p>I apologize Jarn for quoting you as Sheed.</p>
<p>Allow me to give one pre-rebuttal. </p>
<p>Yes, the Christians attacked aggressively in the Crusades because they too slaughtered Muslims when they gained control of the Holy Land. However, this is the only instance where Christians have, on a untied large scale, committed a genocide. And, in this instance, the Christians were not acting in Allah's name, like the Muslims; instead, they were killing in the name of revenge, not their faith.</p>
<p>My vote = mike huckabee</p>
<p>Okay so apparently you say revenge killing is better than the killing for a particular faith. I find that hilarious in its own ways.</p>
<p>Mrcrowley1776, I will not argue with someone who splatters complete BS online and then tries to make it look like they know what you're talking about. Your history is soo flawed that if you are not a sophomore in high school or freshmanj at most, you had one sad, sad history class.</p>
<p>PEace out,</p>
<p>Both revenge killing and killing for a particular faith are bad, but revenge killing is temporary while killing for a particular faith continues, as we have clearly seen.</p>
<p>"Mrcrowley1776, I will not argue with someone who splatters complete BS online and then tries to make it look like they know what you're talking about. Your history is soo flawed that if you are not a sophomore in high school or freshmanj at most, you had one sad, sad history class.</p>
<p>PEace out,"</p>
<p>Please stop slandering me, and argue with some dignity.</p>
<p>If you think what I posted is false, prove it.</p>
<p>If you think I know nothing about history, prove it.</p>
<p>I believe that you are the one who stated that the Muslims are only aggressive towards America, while I indeed stated that Islam is viewed by many of its supporters as a religion that advocates violence. You simply dismissed this notion by denying the a correlation between Muslim behavior then and now. Furthermore, you denied the senseless genocides that Muslims are still conducting around the world today, and in doing so, you have equated yourself with someone who denies the Holocaust. You have denied facts.</p>
<p>All I can do is present a logical, factually based argument. While you have presented some valid points, you have not refuted many of my arguments with logic or fact; instead, you prefer vicious libel and unfair, unmerited verbal slandering.</p>
<p>By the way, I am a senior in high school, and I have scored a 5 on the AP Exams for both World History and American History.</p>
<p>whatever</p>
<p>where exactly did i deny the correlation between Muslim behavior then and now?</p>
<p>where did i say they were only aggressive towards America?</p>
<p>where did i deny facts?</p>
<p>where did i deny genocides?</p>
<p>stop putting words into my mouth</p>
<p>
[quote]
while I indeed stated that Islam is viewed by many of its supporters as a religion that advocates violence
[/quote]
what do you consider many? .0000005 percent of the islamic population?</p>
<p>St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre
Spanish Inquisition</p>
<p>Need I go on?</p>