Again, this is generalization and my personal view, so take it for what it is. Families in the donut hole tend to have parents who work fewer hours and are more available to their children. who work 80+ hours. They have meals at home with their kids and go to their kids’ activities. How often have people posted here about wealthy kids who are entitled, lack of empathy, and spoiled?(they may not all be true) Kids in the donut hole are more likely to work while in school instead traveling to Aspen to ski or shopping in Paris. On the other hand, students from poorer family have a lot more to over come (socially, emotionally, economically) when they go off to college, that’s why many colleges have special services for those students. Most of those students do adjust, but some fail out of college because they couldn’t overcome some of those obstacles.
I guess we are in that donut hole. But so then are most of the residents of our town.
Like @oldfort we made the decision to pay for college as a priority, which entailed some choices on where NOT to spend our money, and some more frugal spending than maybe we wanted to do.
And we also would have sent out kids to less costly schools if we really had been unable to pay the costs for them to go where we sent them.
BUT…at NO TIME did we expect that others would be picking up the bill for our kids to attend college. Never. And we fully understood what the financial aid situation was (and is) for our kids.
There are some very generous and competitive colleges with very deep pockets who DO give need based aid to higher earners. HYPS…very generous. But this is institutional money.
There are a lot of fine choices out there that do NOT cost $70,000 a year. No, they are not in the top 20…but students can get a good education at these schools. Some of these hidden gems even have very strong departments in some fields.
I’m sorry, but it’s a first world problem to be able to pay for college…but not be willing to. And it’s a choice. Just like it’s a choice to attend a $60,000 plus a year college.
There’s people who would kill for a slot at one of the service academies. That last thing the military needs to do is waste a slot on someone who views it as some convoluted way of gaming the FA system or getting their first two years paid for free.
My kids have/do/will attend the schools that the OP is lamenting as being reduced to attending. I find the attitude both sad and humorous. Sad bc I think it is earnestly believed by the OP. Humorous bc I know how successful my adult children are and how much they thrived at their individual universities.
My oldest ds has an excellent career as a chemE. He attended a small public tech university. 5 yrs post graduation, he is significantly beyond career level expectations. Our youngest ds has been incredibly blessed at Bama. He has had great UG research opportunities. He has been doing research since his freshman yr. He had great REU offers last summer and great REU offers again this summer. He has been able to take grad level classes and his professors are wonderful mentors. My 12th grader just found out she has been accepted as a McNair at SC. USC’s Top Scholar program is awesome.
Our family has been both blessed by and have received numerous opportunities from those “mediocre” universities. I am incredibly thankful for those experiences and scholarships.
@roethlisburger why is that so bad? There’s plenty of people going into service academies with convoluted views about America’s role in world politics why do they deserve the spot more than somebody trying to get an education?
The service academies exist to serve the needs of the military, not to provide people with a free education. If you promise to fulfill a certain service commitment, when you have no intention of fulfilling it, that’s dishonest, even if the military will let you walk away without penalties. If you want to discuss America’s role in world politics, that’s a massive detour from the original topic, and probably against the site’s TOS even as it’s own thread(too political).
Then complain to your congresscritter to get the current laws as they are written changed.
Also, keep in mind very few cadets who end up doing this set out to do so to “game the system”. Instead, they just found the academy environment wasn’t for them and the regulations as currently written do allow for a 2 year “trial period” before they incur a service obligation.
While that is their main mission, in practice they’ve also had a mission similar to other colleges/universities to educate responsible citizens who contribute to the advancement of US society in many areas whether it’s scientific, commercial, intellectual, civic, or many other areas/roles beyond being a professional military officer.
This isn’t only a recent phenomenon, but goes back to the very earliest days of West Point and Annapolis in the early-mid 19th century. For instance, most of the educated engineers in the US for a sizable chunk of the 19th century were West Point alums as it was one of the earliest and productive producers of engineers in the early-mid 19th century when there weren’t many engineering schools in the US.
As an aside, you’d probably be even more aghast at how the Japanese National Defense Academy which also provides a free education for all cadets doesn’t legally impose a military service obligation on its graduates.
As a result, while there’s much grumbling among Academy/military* officers/officials, veterans, and moreso…alums of the Imperial Japanese military academies from WWII fame and earlier, there’s always a few graduating cadets who opt out of military service right before graduation each year going back to its founding in the 1950’s and no one can legally stop them.
- Yes, I know they're technically the "Self-Defense Forces", but in actual practice, they are Japan's armed forces in all but name.
@twogirls said:
That’s really it in a nutshell. Well said.
Interesting discussion. I agree with the general sentiment of this thread.
But, I can try to understand OP’s views. He/She appears to be from immigrant/ethnic background and works hard to earn his income that puts him in the proverbial donut hole. Probably lives frugally and careful with his money. Lives in a high cost area. Shoulders family responsibility to take care of parents. Do not indulge in eating out or vacations or cars or fancy toys. Built up home equity. Finds out his kid does not qualify for need based aid even though he is not rich enough to pay for a private top tier or ivy despite getting admission.
He/She sees the kids who are getting full rides under need based aid schemes and can graduate debt free. He feels that he is being penalized for doing the right thing-working, being careful with his income, living frugally. What all I am saying is that I can understand his perspective while I may not agree with him 100%. But, there is some basis to his viewpoint.
Who can get full rides to Ivy League schools under need based aid schemes?
The OP is giving money to his parents. While that’s very nice, it’s his choice and he still has money left to send his D to an excellent college.
Being poor really isn’t a scheme or anything that anyone should be jealous of.
I’m reminded of those times at Disney World when we were allowed to cut a line because of my oldest’s severe disability. There was always someone complaining that it wasn’t fair. I can’t count how many times I bit my tongue to keep from asking if they’d like to switch - they could cut the line if it meant their child had autism and mine did not.
There are very few schools that meet 100% need. And those that do are no piece of cake to get into - especially if your family is poor and doesn’t have access to tutors or test prep or anything of the things their more affluent peers can be involved in to boost their chances. The idea that there is some unfair mechanism that gives free college to a large group of people is a ridiculous exaggeration.
Many branches of my extended family were the same way as this proverbial immigrant and yet, had no qualms about tightening their belts to send their kids as full-pay parents PROVIDED the students were high academic achievers and didn’t prioritize partying/beer/goofing off to the point of abysmal college grades/getting a disciplinary/criminal record with one notable exception*.
They also never begrudged students who were on need-based FA, especially at the Ivy/elite colleges. In their view, begrudging such students was a negative indictment of the begrudger’s own character**…especially considering they felt the high standards of admission to such elite colleges meant that the need-based FA was effectively a “scholarship”…except one based on merit(exceedingly competitive admissions) AND financial need.
- Most in my extended family felt the aunt/uncle who continued to be full pay for the older male cousin who was on the brink of academic suspension/expulsion multiple times for prioritizing beer/partying/fraternity activities over academics was overindulged by the parents continuing to pay for his college education. Most of the aunts/uncles would have forced a mandatory gap period and insist they get a regular job/attempt to start their own business(with some family help) or enlist in the armed forces to hopefully gain more maturity before returning to college later on or doing something else.
** Part of this is also their feeling that this mentality was the equivalent of a wealthy or comfortably upper-middle class person complaining about lower-income folks receiving attention of charity/financial aid organizations and thus, showing serious lack of appreciation for their far better circumstances vis a vis lower-income folks. They would and do remind their/their neighbors’ kids and neighbors of this if/when they start complaining along such lines in their presence.
Thank you for your kind words, empathy and compassion. You are an amazingly kind bunch of folks.
@SugarlessCandy what would you like us to say? We are all very willing to help you find some outstanding schools that would give your daughter merit money. I think it’s very nice that a group of strangers is willing (and happy) to do this.
Maybe people who get need-based aid should have to wear color coded clothes to reflect how much aid they are getting to fund their education. Maybe we should shame those lucky ducks who get to go to school on the backs of the taxpayers, because they don’t already have enough to deal with being less fortunate than those who can afford the luxury of choosing where to attend college.
Or I suppose they could surprise cut costs in half, then give no aid to anyone. It would be less expensive for those with money and those without could pound salt.
Nah, that doesn’t solve the problem of parents who still refuse to pay. But it gets rid of those pesky FA kids making it unfair to those with assets. Yup, sarcasm.
I think there is underlying reason for this question. Everyone might want to review OP and his purpose
The OP confuses me. The D is applying to about 6 schools and wants them to be right for her (yay). The OP goes back and forth between asking about honors programs, asking about merit, suggesting that there are very good non-Ivy schools that his D would like, suggesting he/she can pay for an Ivy if necessary but then arguing that it’s not fair that he should have to suffer in his retirement. Then he says students should get a lot of aid if their parents won’t pay ( but could) and seems to think it’s unfair that the taxpayers are not refunding him ( through free tuition) for the money he sends back home to his parents.
@SugarlessCandy I am all for helping as much as possible but this is a bit crazy. At this point I don’t really know what you want for your daughter. If you want to send her to an Ivy that is your right. If you want us to help you find more affordable options at excellent schools, we will.
I do appreciate helpful posters. Thank you.
What do you consider helpful?