Who really gets into Ivy Leagues?

Parents Forum
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<p>Who really gets into ivies? I know a few:</p>

<p>A young woman with stellar grades and scores, NM Finalist, lots of volunteering, robotics team, all around incredible kid with a mom who is a secretary at a Montessori & a dad who is a computer engineer (not the high-paid kind - comfortable living). A young man who scored 5 on all 8 or 10 (I forget) AP exams, with perfect grades & great test scores, NMCommended, lots of leadership, whose grandfather was lieutenent governor of their state, dad is a lawyer. A young man with great grades & scores, NMCommended, lots of volunteering, lots of EC’s, plays in bands, sings, acts, is incredibly humorous, from a very regular family. A young man at the top of his class, challenging curriculum, musical, has a physical disability (mentioning because that might be considered a hook) — he told the other kids he got a full ride, which at any ivy means his parents are not especially well off. A young woman with a strong academic background who surprised her peers when she was admitted to an ivy … all they knew that differentiated her is that she started her school’s LGBT club. Another young man who played football at an ivy … don’t know about him, as I know just his parents. They are not rich or famous in any way … mom is a school secretary, dad owns some car washes in his area. I met the kid once & he was really nice. </p>

<p>Another young man I know is the son of poor, uneducated immigrants. The young man went to a very run of the mill public high school & has had to work like crazy to keep up with those who had more educational advantages than he. His drive and motivation have allowed him to do very well.</p>

<p>So there ARE some “normal” kids at ivies!!</p>

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<p>I attended Princeton many decades ago - mine was the first generation from both sides of the family ever to attend college. Both parents were strictly blue-collar. So it USED to happen, at least back then. No idea on the current statistics though.</p>

<p>Of course, Princeton also had student loans back then too. </p>

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<li>K.</li>
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<p>I should add to my post that NONE of these kids did research, early college, or anything over the top. They were all just great kids who did things at school & in the community. None were over-achievers in the sense that many here on CC are over-achievers. They did well in school, participated in activities with their friends, and they were all well rounded.</p>

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<p>Kelsmom,</p>

<p>The fact that you know a good number of kids in Ivies tells me you must live on the east coast. :slight_smile: We know one, my son’s friend, though we have several online acquaintances who attend these schools. I’m glad to know there are “normal” kids that attend the Ivies! :-)</p>

<p>xr, </p>

<p>My son is testing the Questbridge water with the college prep scholarship. I’m pretty sure our income is way too high but I thought it couldn’t hurt and it’s been good to have him think about what challenges he really has overcome. His essays were on working since age 13, overcoming adhd, and how our community doesn’t value education.</p>

<p>Alh, none of those schools are on my son’s list currently. Harvey Mudd is on his list and they’ve shown some interest in him, I think. Vanderbilt is on the list because of the music scene. Wash U. was on the list but it sounded like it was more for pre-med types than pure math loving types. Chicago was on the list but my son thought it was somewhat unfriendly and cold.</p>

<p>The short list: Princeton, Penn (Harvard??), Vanderbilt, Harvey Mudd, UTD, UCSD, Davidson?, maybe Grove City</p>

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<p>To a few others - let’s not debate on Financial aid, I stated previously that I am not qualified. (I don’t consider loan is an aid, I love it if they even give my kids work-study).</p>

<p>Going back to the title - “Who really gets into Ivies?” my point was that in the last few years I am not seeing the best and the brightest kids getting into Ivies, and my reason was that they opted for the other alternatives due to financial reasons. Regardless whether their families can/cannot afford the cost, they found alternatives so that they don’t have to over-burden their families. </p>

<p>I have definitely witnessed kids from Lexington High school got accepted to Princeton and went to other schools such as Northeastern due to their financial package. Likewise, I’ve seen kids from our schools turned down MIT to Olin, and turned down CalTech for USC, again due to financial reasons.</p>

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<p>Kels mom,</p>

<p>It’s is good to know that “normal” high achieving kids are getting in at various schools! My son was able to be offered a research position because of the following: He loves physics and after he self studied it in 7th grade, I tried to find an online physics class but I couldn’t. I called a couple private Christian universities and found one that was willing to let him audit a course (based on his 7th grade SAT scores). After that, he wanted to keep studying so he took all the community college physics classes (community college is inexpensive where I live). This year, he wanted to continue to study, so I found a physics class that seemed his level and he contacted the prof and the guy allowed him to audit for free. He liked my son so much he offered to let him do research this summer. My son applied to and was rejected by RSI so it’s not like he’s the top of the crop, but this will be a possible paid position and a good chance to see if my son really likes physics or if he prefers math as a major.</p>

<p>I have worked hard to find affordable resources for my son. He’s been a wonderful, enthusiastic learner but it has been challenging designing an appropriate education. I’m grateful for my dh’s job and for some outside support we have received.</p>

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<p>Our tour at Brown last summer was given by a formerly homeschooled student, from a small rural community near Ashville NC. There are ways to “package” a homeschooled applicant. I see a couple hooks you’ve mentioned already and I am going to disagree with you, on the “it’s not fair” kind of attitude. You need to have your child take AP exams, SAT II exams, etc., in order to show what he’s learned during his home study years. The Ivy’s are not just accepting affluent/well-connected kids. The students that are admitted into the Ivy’s have worked hard for their acceptances. That’s how they “get in”. How they pay for it is an entire other topic ;). My son applied to only one --Brown as you already probably guessed. He stands a 10% chance of being admitted, just like everyone else. It’s a slim chance (for everyone!). But we visited, jumped through all the hoops, did all we could. If he doesn’t get in, at least he knows he tried.</p>

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<p>sbjdorlo, your son sounds like a legitimate candidate at the Ivies and other super-selective schools. I think that you are wrong about “most” spots at highly selective schools going to people “with money.” If your son doesn’t get into one of the Ivies he applies to, it won’t be because your family is not wealthy. Given his stats and accomplishments, he has a decent chance of getting in to one of them unless his overall application is weak or he REALLY ticks off the alumni interviewer! :slight_smile: Obviously, he needs to apply to a range of schools. (Don’t overlook LACs like Swarthmore and Amherst, either.)</p>

<p>What you need to do is research how to put together a good application, especially for a home-schooled kid. One thing that is often recommended for homeschoolers is to take more SAT IIs than usual in order to provide an outside support of the parent’s description of their achievement. That might not be as relevant in your case, since your S has taken regular courses at CC and has non-parental grades to show. If I were you I would look over his preparation as a whole and see if there are significant subject areas where the only word on how well he has done or how much he has learned is yours. Say that he has never taken a history or social science course with anyone but you, or you have been his only foreign language teacher. That might be the place to throw in an additional subject test.</p>

<p>Something else you should consider is recommendations. I would ignore the stuff about only having two recs, but make sure that what you send is a) from people who know him pretty well, and b) drawn from various areas of his life so that they are not repetitive.
I would think about getting four: two from teachers/academics/researchers, preferably in different subjects, one for his music EC, and maybe another having to with chess or his work. In other words, you want to present a full picture of who he is.</p>

<p>And yes, he does need good essays. :)</p>

<p>There have to be parents here with kids schooled like yours who have successfully negotiated the applications process and whose kids got into top schools. Maybe if you start a thread with an appropriate title they will come out of the woodwork.</p>

<p>BTW, I know a number of kids currently at Ivies and the equivalent very well. Friends from my son’s class in HS are at Harvard, Yale, Brown, Penn, Dartmouth (my kid), and Cornell. I know several others from other contexts. Only one of them is from a rich family, and none of them walk on water.</p>

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<p>Make sure you fill this out on your application. As for my opinion on who really gets into Ivy league schools, it is mostly kids who deserve it. Sure, legacies, URM’s, athletic recruits may get in with slightly lower stats. But for schools like HYP, no matter what your hook is, you need darn good stats.</p>

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<p>This (EC’s) is the area he needs to focus on. His grades and tests scores are stellar so he should just keep doing what he has been doing in this department and continue to challenge himself. Don’t have him load up on extra academic stuff unless he absolutely loves it as it will take away from his time to develop as a person. The EC’s you mention are all good, but things I imagine a lot of other top kids do. Is there any one of these things that he really likes? He needs to pick just one of these things and really focus on it. If he is doing all of the things you mentioned, he won’t have time to dedicate to doing one really well. By picking just one, he can get his feet wet and learn a lot. He needs to do something that can show what he is capable of doing outside of academics. IMO once the college sees that he is academically a fit (I seriously doubt that they spend much time on a 2250 vs. a 2350), they move to the next level and determine what he can bring to the table.</p>

<p>I think too many people focus on test scores and forget the rest of the person.</p>

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<p>sbjdorlo-I would love to see the links where you found this info as I find it fascinating.</p>

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<p>This has been the case for, well, forever. :slight_smile: It’s not a recent phenomenon. To clarify, you are seeing students get into the Ivies. You’re just not seeing them matriculate there, or they’re choosing not to apply from the get-go because they know they’re not affordable for their family. </p>

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<p>Princeton has an exceedingly generous financial aid program. Students from families with household incomes up to (IIRC) $60k attend free of charge, and those from families earning up to (again, IIRC) $180-200k pay no more than 10% of their income for total COA. A student who is admitted to Princeton, or Harvard, or Yale, or Stanford, who then can’t attend due to cost is generally from a family earning over $200k a year. Which is not to say that any family earning that much can easily afford to pay for a $50k+ COA school. Between what the family can actually pay and some merit aid at another school (e.g. Northeastern), the student is going to do just fine.</p>

<p>Olin instead of MIT is hardly a sad state of affairs. I adore Caltech, was raised to hate USC :slight_smile: and even so think having to take the latter over the former isn’t the end of the world.</p>

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<p>One thing to keep in mind with a math kid who has been taking college level classes, his course options will be limited if he attends a four year college. It is also the case at some universities that undergrads are excluded from grad level courses. Having said that, if he is interested in an LAC, take a look at Swarthmore.</p>

<p>Regarding Harvard-- My very down to earth S found Princeton a little snooty (for lack of a better word) and, much to his surprise, found Harvard quite comfortable when he visited.</p>

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<p>For home schooling success cases, google Evan o’dourney. He is an autistic prodigy who won the national spelling bee and Intel talent search.</p>

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<p>For ivies, it seems likes kids who are not cookie-cutter are getting in. Just be yourself and explore your interests</p>

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<p>Our local HS typically sends 1 or 2 kids to Ivies each year. Almost always in the top 10 of the class and great SAT’s.</p>

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<p>To answer your question to me:
Start with the knowledge that adcoms at top schools are quite savvy to the reputations of various areas and high schools in the country- if you are in a moderate neighborhood in a wealthy area, yes, you will compete with those “advantaged” kids. BUT, as far as my experience goes, your son will be considered in BOTH contexts- kids from the area (because they do not want to overload from any one area) and kids from his own hs (in your case, his experience in his academic program.) The more advantaged your area kids are, the better he may actually look—in the sense that he did not have their academic and school-offered EC advantages.</p>

<p>Understand that, as readers go over the apps, a number of church-related things sometimes do not carry the weight of outside activities. Partly because involvement with a church is often family-driven and an expectation of membership rather than evidence of his own raw leadership skills. So, review those and how they are described. See what he can do in the community- beyond what might be considered his “comfort zone.” The idea is to create a picture of his skills, motivation, compassion, energy, adaptability, etc, that make him seem a “natural.”</p>

<p>The violin activities, teaching to disadvantaged and as a job and the tutoring are good. The internship is excellent, as are the physics awards and competitions. (The work at the state U is fine, doesn’t have to be the UC.)</p>

<p>No, the positions at Ivies are not only to monied kids. Period. The Ivies are committed (contractually, I believe, with each other) to be “needs blind” which means no counting the need for finaid against a kid. Sure, there are exceptions, but not worth worrying about. Yes, it’s good business to take full-pay kids, but the top schools have huge development teams out there wringing money from donors. </p>

<p>One thing to watch for with Questbridge: make sure he also fills out the college’s supplement - and, it is possible to also submit a CA. Otherwise, so many specific and vital questions remain unanswered. Also, make sure the LoRs are real letters- on QB, often these get shortchanged, based on the format. And, make sure you get solid academic recommendations- a college prof, eg, rather than just writing your own. Think, thoughout this process, what carries the best weight.</p>

<p>Basically, he looks like he’s perfect to try applying to a few tippy tops.</p>

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<p>agree. I think he is going to need access to graduate level classes. I think most top universities will have a few freshmen already taking graduate math courses?? Am I wrong?</p>

<p>sbjdorlo: please correct me if I am wrong, but the way I am reading this - your son is interested in Princeton for its math dept? and rather coincidentally it is also ivy league? In this case I think the emphasis should be on his academic interests, although the ec’s will show he is well-rounded. In the past students I know who liked Princeton for math, also liked Harvard, MIT, Caltech, Stanford. I know nothing about math depts myself. I do know kids who apply to schools for particular depts (and not just math) and in that case it makes sense to me to highlight that fact rather than create a more generic application. </p>

<p>But what do I know … I’m not an admissions officer. :)</p>

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<p>If they are not taking them freshman year, they are taking them soon after. The strongest math students at Harvard take Math 55 freshman year. From the math dept-- “This is probably the most difficult undergraduate math class in the country; a variety of advanced topics in mathematics are covered, and problem sets ask students to prove many fundamental theorems of analysis and linear algebra. Class meets three hours per week, plus one hour of section, and problem sets can take anywhere from 24 to 60 hours to complete.”</p>

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<p>Here is our experience. I am not a college graduate but my husband is an engineer and together we make around $112000. We have 4 kids and our oldest graduated from Duke last May, our second oldest is a Junior at Harvard, and we still have a Sr in HS and another in middle school. My kids are regular kids who were over achievers in their high school but pale in comparison to the multitude of others in the applicant pools of their respective colleges. I did a TON of research before we got to the point of college applications and they all wrote wonderful, personal essays (on their own) and had stellar rec’s from their teachers. Their scores were great but not incredible (1930-2100) My philosophy is that they will not get in if they don’t apply! So, even though it was never encouraged by our guidance counselor they applied to many top schools. We have told each of our kids that we will contribute X amount of dollars to fund their education. Whatever they have to pay above and beyond that is at their expense. We simply cannot afford anything other than that. Duke was not great with financial aid and my son graduated with $70,000 in debt - yup, you read that right. BUT he had a choice and he made it. He is an engineer and got a great job and will actually be able to get out of debt in a timely manner. I should make note that he worked throughout college and got his EMT while there so he could make good money part time for the university. He is a smart cookie. He says that if he had to do it over again he would make the same choice for a number of reasons. First, the network of people that he has connections with is unbelievable. Many of his friends do have parents who are CEO’s etc, and he believes this will open doors for him in the future. Also, many of his classmates have been able to go on to great careers right out of the gate. Secondly, he always knew he wanted to be an engineer and therefore would be able to get a decent job coming out of college. He probably would not have picked Duke if his education did not assure him of a solid job right out of college (in his mind at least). Now, my daughter at Harvard will graduate with probably no debt because we only had to pay $12,000/yr for her ( a little more this year because my oldest son is no longer in college). This was lower than every other school she got accepted to, and there were many. It was the clear choice. She was able to get an excellent job being an afternoon nanny simply by looking on the job posting website on campus. With her job she is able to fund everything else she needs. We do not and have never been able to send our kids cash at school. If they need money, they have to come up with it. This past spring break she chose to do an alternative spring break trip with the United Way and she funded the whole thing. To say that Ivy League schools are unfundable is simply not the case at least in my opinion. Her scenario works for her because she is pre-med and will need to fund medical school. I have found that the kids at both of their schools have been a real mixture of every background you can think of - that’s why I say not to rule it out. The kids at both schools seem to be your All-American type kid. Sure there are the kids of famous people and CEO’s there, but there are just as many kids similar to my own there as well. As for our high school senior right now, we are still waiting to hear where he will go. He will have to think long and hard about his choice because he is undecided about a major but he knows he DOES NOT want to be an engineer or anything in the sciences…haha! My husband has already started a spreadsheet ( I did mention that he is an engineer, lol) showing the costs and the grants, loans, and expenses for the schools he has already heard from. We want him to make an educated decision based on all the scenarios.</p>

<p>I guess I just want to be clear that you should never rule anything out. It drives me crazy to read all the chance threads because you just have no way to be sure about any of it. You will never know if you don’t apply and get that financial aid award. I truly believe my kids would be happy almost anywhere, but luckily they did apply and now have vast opportunities at their doors. </p>

<p>Best of luck to all of you as we navigate this journey with our kids!</p>

<p>Best of luck to all of you.</p>