Who really gets into Ivy Leagues?

Parents Forum
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<p>Kajon,</p>

<p>Here’s one link: [Baseball</a> - ROSTER - GoPrincetonTigers.com - Education Through Athletics … An Unmatched Tradition of Athletic Success.](<a href=“http://www.goprincetontigers.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPID=4228&SPSID=46839&DB_OEM_ID=10600]Baseball”>http://www.goprincetontigers.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPID=4228&SPSID=46839&DB_OEM_ID=10600) </p>

<p>Look under the roster for each sport (I started with baseball since that’s what my son plays) and you’ll see most kids have stats listed such as high school name, accomplishments, parents names, parents jobs, siblings names, and siblings schools. I found that the majority of the athletes (not all mind you; there are some athletes with no information about their parents, which I found interesting) came from affluent backgrounds, schools, careers.</p>

<p>Again, please don’t misunderstand me. I don’t begrudge schools in the least and I am not saying “it’s not fair”. I am simply saying it’s been eye opening. My cousin in NYC has two PhDs and I think she rocks. My dad was educated and working towards a PhD when he decided to take a job as a systems engineer, He went to Univ. Colorado, Boulder.</p>

<p>I graduated from the local state univ. after 7 years and I chose to marry a guy without college. We’re doing well enough, we really are. I hadn’t planned on looking into Ivies but my oldest son has sort of turned our world on it’s head and we want to help him in whatever way he can.</p>

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<p>I would venture a guess that the Ivies are disproportionately attended by East Coasters. At my kids’ California high school, a large school with the highest SATs in the state, one kid went to Yale. The others, including those with all 5’s on APs and perfect SAT subject tests, chose to stay in California and attend UCs.</p>

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<p>

I don’t know the exact stats either, but I can guarantee that it happens much more now!</p>

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<p>TatinG-- I just read this about MIT’s admissions this year–</p>

<p>“The biggest percentage of students — 21 percent — hail from the West coast, while the Mid-Atlantic region boasts a close second with 19 percent. Nineteen percent of 2015’s class is from the Mid-Atlantic area, 15 percent from the South, 13 percent from the Midwest and Plain states, and 10 percent from the Southwest and Mountain regions. Surprisingly, only 10 percent of admitted students come from MIT’s own New England region.”</p>

<p>[Class</a> of 2015 admission rate sinks to 9.6 percent - The Tech](<a href=“http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N14/admissions.html?comments#comments]Class”>http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N14/admissions.html?comments#comments)</p>

<p>I don’t know how similar the ivies would be, but I’d guess somewhat.</p>

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<p>1moremom,</p>

<p>Yes, this is a bit of a challenge if my son attends a less selective school. I think he would definitely do graduate work as he’s done math through Real Analysis (currently doing that) and I think maybe I mentioned he’s currently auditing the hardest u/g physics course at the local state u. He’ll sit in on a 300 level class at Princeton when he visits because it’s using the same textbook as the one his class is using. He received the highest grade in class first semester so I know he’s understanding the material. Still, he’s not winning physics olympiads and he’s only done math competitions for two years and didn’t qualify for USAMO, so he’s got plenty to learn (though competition math and college math courses seems to be a different breed altogether)!</p>

<p>That’s interesting that your son found Harvard more comfortable. My son won’t have a chance to visit Harvard before he applies. Flights to Philly were dirt cheap ($170 round) and we’re staying with acquaintances so no hotel costs. If my son had gotten into RSI, he could have seen Harvard but that’s the way it goes.</p>

<p>Blessmom,</p>

<p>Thanks for sharing your children’s journeys. That was very encouraging! They sound like an amazing bunch of kids and you sound like an amazing mom. I am definitely trying to do as much research as I can on the ins and outs of college admissions. I read books, my son reads books, and we talk a lot. My dh thinks I’m nuts for doing as much research as I do. LOL I don’t even want to think about my two younger boys. :-)</p>

<p>Yes, finances will be an issue which is why the Ivies look so darn good. I did our numbers on the Princeton calculator and the estimated EFC was between $5500-6500 a year. I think that might be doable!</p>

<p>jkiw and consolation, thank-you for the pointers! I wondered about letters of recommendation. I was thinking of 4-5: physics prof, math tutor, honors English teacher, pastor at church, and conductor of univ. orchestra where he’s been since age 12. Is that too much? He has only taken 5 AP exams (all 5s and one 4), is taking one this year and maybe 2-3 more his senior year (too late for admissions but oh well) and I plan on having him take at least one more SAT II so he’ll have 4. I hope 4 is enough.</p>

<p>Yes, he has a weakness and that is history, with no outside “proof” of work; so, I was going to have him take either the SAT II US or World or go ahead and have him take a CC or Univ. US History course this summer so it will be on his transcripts when he applies.</p>

<p>mtnmomma, one of his struggles is that he does indeed love to “do it all”. He wrote an essay about that. We have told him to narrow his ECs but he can’t seem to give anything up (he did give up bowling last year after having won some small scholarships). He goes in phases with chess, baseball, does music all year (violin for 10+ years and self taught on several other instruments; symphony, private lessons, 2 rock bands, and lots of freelance work, both paid and unpaid), does math and physics competitions (but only the AMC, AIME, ARML, local math olympiad and the CalTech Harvey Mudd but he sits probably only in the top 20-25 in our large city), and is heavily involved in church worship, youth group, and working. I don’t know what to say; it might be his adhd or the fact that he just is afraid to make decisions to let go of things in fear that he’ll regret it later. At any rate, he truly loves all of those activities. I think baseball will go away in college, particularly if he has a mediocre season this year. </p>

<p>Music is by far his biggest EC but it’s hard to describe it. He is in demand as a violinist because he’s connected to a fairly wide circle of people but he’s not winning concerto competitions or anything like that. (Only has one competition win) He’s just constantly working, recording, playing for local theater companies, teaching both for pay and service, and he uses his guitar and voice at church. He is a real leader and works extremely well with both adults and youth but yes, I know that church community service isn’t impressive like other community service. I would say it’s a weakness in his portfolio.</p>

<p>I am going to talk with his conductor about more opportunities to serve. He now plays in a free community orchestra (it’s the same conductor from the university but the university stopped supporting the orchestra, it folded, so she took the orchestra out to the community) and they do some neat events.</p>

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<p>I don’t know percentages but it is funny because my DD at Harvard has tons of friends from CA. In fact, 2 of her roomies are from CA! It seems like they are from CA, NJ, NY and MA.</p>

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<p>alh,</p>

<p>Yes, my son adores what he calls “pure” math, which is why Princeton and Harvard sound good to him. (He also wants to be fluent in Arabic so these types of schools might be better fits than tech schools…dunno)</p>

<p>He works with a tutor online and they have been doing some proof work (or something like that). They might tackle 1-2 problems an hour and my son enjoys it so much. Again, though, he’s no Evan O’Dorney. His national stuff is limited to the physics olympiad semis twice and national chess ranking. He has truly followed his passions, though. He had an opportunity to work with an international math olympiad champ but my son didn’t want to do it. It was too much of the wrong kind of math. While he totally enjoys the challenge of an AIME problem, he seems to more prefer a good proof from differential equations or real analysis and his slower speed doesn’t help on math competitions. He came home very bummed after the AIME because he only completed 5 problems and was working on a 6th when the time ran out. Still, it appears this was a tough year and he got 5 right and that was an improvement from last year. :-)</p>

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<p>Nor did my son shine in the math competitions. I think schools appreciate that kids come at it in different ways. My son also had a strong interest in linguistics when he was applying (and studied Chinese as an undergrad). Your son might enjoy looking at this–
[Freshman</a> Seminar 23j: Chess and Mathematics (Fall 2006)](<a href=“http://www.math.harvard.edu/~elkies/FS23j.06/index.html]Freshman”>http://www.math.harvard.edu/~elkies/FS23j.06/index.html)</p>

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<p>OP:</p>

<p>My DD has 2 high ranking Ivy LLs (plus other top ranked school acceptances). Our family is of very modest means and she is a non-athlete. It will be interesting next week to see the remaining decisions. It is more than just possible to seek, and achieve, that dream school.</p>

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<p>OP-from what you have posted it sounds like your son is very happy doing exactly what he is already doing. I would not bother with changing anything as long as he is happy and doing what he truly enjoys. This is the path to success! I can guarantee that with his stats he will get into a fine school. He shouldn’t change anything to try to “fit” into any particular college–I would only advise that for kids that are doing something because they think they should (this will eventually hurt them in the long run because it takes time away from their true passions). If he likes to dabble in a little bit of everything, he should do it.</p>

<p>How would he (and you) feel if he gave up some of the things he loves to try to be “better” at what we all think the colleges want yet still didn’t get admitted? I personally know a lot of really smart/wonderful kids who didn’t get into their “dream school”, it would be sad if they also gave something they love along the way.</p>

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<p>Maybe I’m wrong since no one has brought this up in 4 pages, but there are definitely kids not from upper class backgrounds, which can be seen from the percentage of students receiving financial aid or Pell grants at these schools.</p>

<p>My guess is that athletes are not a good representation of the student body at the Ivy Leagues. Well, this is obvious, but I’m not sure why this relates to the high school the players attended. This would be a lot more obvious if you picked sports like lacrosse or water polo or something which aren’t very common at public schools. But for football, basketball, and baseball I think that there is something about the unique situation that the Ivy League schools are in - that they are Division I, but still have rigorous academics - that makes it easiest for those from well-connected prep schools to get on the teams. I don’t know a lot about the details about recruiting though, so I’m not sure. Definitely don’t use athletes as a representative sample though.</p>

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<p>Blessmom, You remind me of Poetmom–savvy, nurturing, wise, hopeful. Sounds like kids are doing great.</p>

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<p>I’ve very much enjoyed this thread, as DD is a HS freshman and very focused on the ivies. Her dad is convinced she will get in np as she is black (actually biracial since I’m white) and has stellar grades and is involved in everything! I’m trying to explain to my husband it’s not so simple, especially financially, as everything I look up with regard to minorities and ivy league always lumps it in with low-income. We are average middle class, with a son entering college this fall (Marist, very bright under-achiever, lol.) So I keep letting her know about GREAT colleges for her that offer merit aid, but she is determined. So be it, we’ll have to give it a shot!</p>

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<p>My D got a likely letter from one Ivy and we are waiting to hear from two others. She is a “normal” kid at a public middle class midwestern suburban high school. Her grades and ACT were very high like lots of other bright hard working kids. She wasn’t a leader. No sports, she only played volleyball freshman year, didn’t hold any offices except treasurer for SADD and was actually in the knitting club. She is not an URM, never did any summer programs, or even visited any Ivies. She is at the top of her class, rigourous course load with AP’s and dual enrollment and with a high ACT 35. She did work hard on her essay and never saw her recs. She is a nice kid but not at all competitive. I would describe her as humble, kind and easy going. Hope this helps give someone encouragement. We couldn’t afford summer programs.</p>

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<p>Our 2 Ds have gone to Harvard - middle-class family, small Southern town, low-ranking public HS with the majority of students qualifying for the free or reduced-price lunch program. Both Ds had top grades, mid-2200 SATs, and a lot of ECs and honors. Because of the limited curriculum at their HS, both took 30-40 hours of joint enrollment courses at a local state university during their jr and sr HS years. I think that having to go to considerable lengths to augment their limited school opportunities is really what gave their applications the needed hooks.</p>

<p>BTW, they’ve both found Harvard to be very welcoming, egalitarian, and breathtakingly diverse.</p>

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<p>

It depends on what you mean by disproportionate. To give Harvard as an example: 40% are from New England and the mid-Atlantic states, but the rest are from all over: [Harvard</a> College Admissions § Applying: Statistics](<a href=“http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/statistics.html]Harvard”>http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/statistics.html)</p>

<p>Personally I had a roommates (at Harvard) from Bangladesh, St. Louis, California and the Boston suburbs. My parents were living in Africa at the time I applied.</p>

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<p>1moremom,</p>

<p>That class from Harvard rocks! My son would <strong><em>love</em></strong> to take a class like this!! Harvard’s classes sound so interesting! Do they still offer this? Do they have a competitive chess team?</p>

<p>Mommidwest and Gadad, how wonderful for your kids to be accepted into the Ivies that they wanted to attend! They sound like terrific young people and I’m sure you are very proud of them. I’m glad to hear of Harvard’s interesting and diverse campus. I wish my son could visit before he applies for college next fall.</p>

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<p>For families in OP’s income bracket, a school like Harvard (and Princeton and Yale have followed suit as well) is often most affordable option. </p>

<p>[Harvard</a> increases undergraduate financial aid by 9 percent for 2010-11 | Harvard Gazette](<a href=“http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/03/harvard-increases-undergraduate-financial-aid-by-9-percent-for-2010-11/]Harvard”>Harvard increases undergraduate financial aid by 9 percent for 2010-11 – Harvard Gazette)</p>

<p>“In 2007, Harvard introduced a new financial aid plan that dramatically reduced the amount that families with incomes below $180,000 are expected to pay. Families with incomes above $120,000 and below $180,000 with assets typical for these income levels are asked to contribute 10 percent of their incomes. For those families with incomes below $120,000, the parental contribution declines steadily from 10 percent, reaching zero for those with incomes at $60,000 and below.”</p>

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<p>Most of the top schools are “needs blind” which means they do NOT look at how much money the parents make. And most of the top schools give great financial aid (though almost no merit aid–they are already taking the cream of the crop so their attitude is that they’re all merit-worthy, I guess. Try Princeton’s financial aid calculator and you might be amazed. Most of the top schools, including the top LACs like Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore, will be the same. Remember also, that there are thousands of schools in this country that charge the same as Swarthmore–$52,000, ouch–but which are much less prestigious. So it isn’t as if the Ivies charge any more than most private colleges do, it’s just that they’re hard to get into. As far as most people going there being from the East Coast, well, I do NOT think being from the East Coast confers an advantage for getting in. They are DESPERATE for kids from other parts of the country. My son’s best friend at a top LAC is from a very large and poor family in Nevada. If you go to those admissions lectures, they love saying “We have kids from 49 states.” However, it’s likely that you’ll see a larger number of East Coast kids in top colleges for two reasons: 1. they’re fairly close to home–and I’ll bet the great majority of students in this country go to schools that are, say, within 10 hours of driving time of their home if they can; and 2. the attitude about education is definitely very serious in many parts of the East Coast, starting from a young age. People spend a lot of money on their public schools and private schools, a large percentage of parents take their kids to museums, get them lessons, take time educating them in many ways. The public school where my child went was so full of high-achieving kids that I think they were at something at a disadvantage when it came to college admissions, because colleges want to get a diverse mix of students, not a whole bunch from one school. On the other hand, even the most brilliant kids in a state that doesn’t value education aren’t going to have the wind at their back of parent/teacher/peer expectations if their school doesn’t give them that extra push they need to become truly excellent.</p>

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<p>

Don’t you think their URM status helped their admissions chances? I sure do!</p>