Who's read "A is for Admissions" book?

Parents Forum
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<p>IMHO the book is most useful when used by middle school students and parents to map out a strategy for selecting classes which will put the student in the most competitive position when senior year comes. We did this, and used it from 97 until our son graduated in 04. I believe, and Michele may have had a different view in writing it, that it is best used not by those completing their high school careers, but with those who have more time to effect the outcomes.</p>

<p>I have often heard, at curriculum debates for our school district, that parents and students do not realize that they begin closing doors with the choices they make in the middle grades. Please don't dogpile on me. It is not my belief that students in middle school should stress about classes. I do, however, believe that parents need to be cognizant of the fact that today's decisions impact tomorrow's opportunities.</p>

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<p>MomOf1, I agree completely. Choices made in middle school effect the picture of the college application. Furthermore, where we are, performance in <em>5th</em> grade affects the college application: 5th grade is the gate where students are assigned to accelerated English and Math for Middle School. It's possible to jump from regular to accelerated during grades 6-8 but difficult. And it's being in the so-called accelerated tracks that largely determines who gets into 9th grade Honors classes leading to 11th and 12th grade AP classes.</p>

<p>I agree with your concluding paragraph: students shouldn't be stressing about this but parents need to be aware.</p>

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<p>Wow: Tracks in middle school? My kids' k-8 school had combined grades and definitely no tracks. But the math & science teachers made it possible for more advanced kids to do more advanced work, including going to the high school as necessary; the other teachers held students to the highest standards they were able to reach. My high-achieving S was not infrequently told he could do better (there were no grades).</p>

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<p>Echosensei, Having just emerged from this process with a daughter from a school, similar, but much less competitive to your DD's, I want to reinforce IDad and Momrath's advice. </p>

<p>This worked for us - put HYPS out of your and her mind, this was easy for us because Yale was the only one that DD ever had any interest in, and after college visits and research, realized that she wanted a smaller school. I say put it out of your mind because no points are given for visiting these, she needs to learn enough about them to know if she wants to apply one, and which one, but she's better off not falling in love with them, fall in love with another school. </p>

<p>Check your EFC, you probably will be full freight, so then she can use ED. I wouldn't pressure ED, but it is a definite advantage, especially if her first choice is truly ED, not SCEA.</p>

<p>Don't worry about the ranking thing, first you can't do anything about it anyway, secondly, with that list of acceptances, the school is probably well known by the adcoms, they are communicating the quality of their students somehow. A few delicate well placed questions may help settle you worries, but I think the track record speaks for itself.</p>

<p>Finally, take the experiences of this year's seniors to heart - UMich should be on her application list, but if she finds she loves smaller schools, be sure there is an appropriate sized/situated safety school, one that won't leave everyone "angry" at attending. The stories of the 2 students you mentioned have been played out here over and over, and may have been due to some of the "application shortcomings" discussed here.</p>

<p>My daughter read The Gatekeepers, and Bauld's book. The Gatekeepers makes for interesting reading if you are going into the process, and put a different spin on it for my daughter as well.</p>

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<p>Marite, the tracks in middle school were not very visible but they were there. Students were in "mixed" classes but the "accelerated" students had different registration codes on their schedules and had extra assignments and allegedly tougher grading. Well, let me amend that...but the time 8th grade rolled around, the Honors Algebra class was only for those whose grades in 7th-grade accelerated Math were either two A's or an A and a B. I believe English classes were blended to the end but getting into 9th-grade Honors English was a function of grades in 8th-grade accelerated, treacher rec, and performance on statewide testing.</p>

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<p>Thedad:</p>

<p>Ah. We had something similar, too. Similar tracking for 9th grade in other subjects for S1. But S2 had heterogeneous classes in English and History (skipped math and science). He was recommended into Spanish 3, but other students were recommended into Spanish 1 or 2.</p>

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<p>Thanks cangel. I definitely agree with all you've said. D knows the choir director and one of the voice faculty at Oberlin from her summers at Interlochen, will be studying one on one with them this summer in the Advanced Vocal Institute at Interlochen (one of only 30 voices accepted) and is very excited about visiting there and looking at the combined BM/BA program. Several of her older friends are in the Honor's College at U of M which essentially takes a big school in a mod sized town experience and turns it into a small school experience. I think she and we would be pleased with this option. Also definitely looking at Barnard. She's looking for either urban (with enclosed campus) or suburban (Oberlin is suburban enough in her mind), but not rural (did not like Amherst because it was "out there"). She's not interested in the South (don't ask me why except she likes 4 seasons) or west coast, really. Anybody have other suggestions for neat schools which might fill the bill and we may otherwise miss because of our lack of knowledge? Wants double major/degree in either chem or physics and voice or MT.</p>

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<p>echosensei- was your D at Interlochen the last two summers? My D did her last two years of high school at Interlochen and worked there the last two summers. She is now a voice major at Rice. Small world! (she is NOT the WildChild of my screen name)</p>

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<p>Yes she was. First year as a non-audition choir, last year as audition-based voice major. Very cool about your daughter! Looks like BIG changes at Interlochen since last summer.</p>

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<p>Echosensei:</p>

<p>have you looked up the MT threads? Tons of information there.</p>

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<p>I read the book when it came out and I had mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, many of her generalizations did not apply even to other Ivies, even at the time of publication. On the other hand, the book is a good wake-up call to the parents of BWRK's who may assume that a 1450 and top 5% is a golden ticket to the school of choice.</p>

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<p>Hanna: bingo!!!!!</p>

<p>That's exactly how it worked with us. Two more tries on the SAT and SAT tutoring were not on the horizon before reading AISFOR... and THE GATEKEEPERS.</p>

<p>Why the focus on the SAT? Finding out that it had been recentered and, more importantly, other than the essay, it was the only thing still left within control.</p>

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<p>Hanna,</p>

<p>I'm curious what you mean about "mixed feelings." When A is for Admission came out, remember it was the first book of its kind which actually revealed what the formula was and how it was used. Admissions officers had denied for two decades that a formula existed when in fact they were not beign truthful. I explained how it was used both by Dartmouth and the other schools. In every case when something was only specific to Dartmouth, I pointed it out, otherwise, the description referred to all the Ivies. As I've mentioned before, even though I worked at Dartmouth, we had many all Ivy meetings in which we discussed admissions policy, so I was quite aware of how we did things versus how other schools did things. There are many footnotes in the book which point out different formulas and ranking systems used by other schools. Nowadays, due to every inreasing numbers of applications, the situation at Harvard, Yale and Princeton is more competitive than when it was when the book came out. So, readers just need to realize that not all 8's and 9's are shoe-ins anymore. As another parent pointed out, academic 8's and 9's who rate over 5 on the extracurricular side still tend to be admitted to most of the other Ivies and little Ivies like Williams, Amherst and the like. Most of my 8 and 9 students not only get admitted early, but when they apply regular, they still get "likely letters." I've been doing private counseling for the past 8-9 years and I"ve seen how competitive things are firsthand. but the truth is, all my 8's and 9's still get into Dartmouth with no problem, or Brown, Penn, Columiba, Penn. At HYP, you need a bit more. I think Chuck Hughes' book is excellent at pointing out what the extra something is. Please feel free to make a specific criticism of my book, but when you only say there are too many generalizations, I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not trying to be defensive (although of course we authors tend to be sensitive :-), but I'm on my 4th book and take great care to make sure the information is accurate.</p>

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<p>lol, track in 8th grade. At D's Elementary school in the Bay Area, they started separate gate and non-gate in 3rd grade. Once you are selected to gate, you're bound to the honors track in middle school then the AP classes in high school. I had to fight tooth and nail to get D on GATE track, eventhough she was not that good in Math(a subject that they test kids on for placement). However, much later she did get into Honors English and Honors Science, etc.. base on honors Math.
Yeap, I checked these books out since D was in 7th grade for high school planning, it was very helfpful. Had I not done that I would not know to have 4 years of math, 4 years of language, 4 years of english, and trio of science so she can be prepared for the good college track.
However, I feel a bit guilty about this decision. I think high school should be fun. D loves theater but can't take it until 11 grade because of all these requirements. Would have been better if her middle school offer French instead of Spanish, she likes French language, but she had to wait until 9th grade before she can start the first year of language requirement. So basically her high school is filled with taking these requirements and fullfil the pre-requisite for the AP class(such as she has to take honors chemistry before she can take AP chemistry, etc..),therefore she have no time left to take anything fun like speech, debate, drama, etc..</p>

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<p>SusieQ, I sympathize. D took some fun stuff...for her, it was Orchestra and Band...by taking the optional 0-period class that starts at 7:12am. Still, she didn't take as much Art as she would have liked and Theater was just a passing "that would have been nice" kind of thought.</p>

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<p>aisforadmission - I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering questions, but I'm curious: based on your experience, do you think a student who is top at mediocre public high school (probably in top 3 out of 300) fares better in the college 'sweepstakes' than a similar student who chose the top prep school route (assuming similar ec - active in school organizations, sports, state level music)? (Assuming also that student is not very top of prep school class, but maybe top half). </p>

<p>Thanks for sharing your insights here.</p>

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<p>No, I don't mind answering those kinds of questions.</p>

<p>I do devote a chapter to that topic but the way you've presented, the kid at the top of a large public high school class has an advantage over a kid in the "middle" of his prep school class any day. But, the problem is, many kids at very mediocre high schools end up wtih top rank but LOW SCORES and are always rejected. So to move your kid to a terrible high school is usually a bad idea because SAT I's, II's and AP scores will be so non-competitive that they won't get in. In fact, when Harvard brags about how many #1's the reject, most are just that: top ranking low-scoring kids. But given the same profile and only the variable of rank in a large class, I'd give the edge to the public school kid (but as you know, all things are never truly "equal") Does that help?</p>

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<p>My goodness. Tracking your kids since elementary school? I had no idea this was even possible. I didn't start exploring this info until a few months ago (daughter's a junior). We've always just encouraged her to the most difficult course load possible because it was fun!! And it is!! Next year she's taking AP Chem, AP Physics, AP BC Calculus, AP French V, and AP Shakespeare Literature (plus choir, Shakespeare acting and leadership) not because we encouraged her (we didn't even know you could...she just submitted her course reg without even asking us), but she thinks they're neat courses. We just got lucky I guess.</p>

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<p>Haven't you heard the stories of the parents in Manhattan who plead and bribe to get their kids into the "right" pre-school? A little overindulgent IMO. We also just started with my HS Junior daughter. She's in a magnet IB program by her own choice. Although she has a perfect 4.0uw average, her class rank is not as high as it could be because she chose to take "fun" electives (drama, etc) rather than more heavily weighted ones. That's fine with me. I'd rather her do that than be neurotic, grade grubbing or resume, rather than interest focused.</p>

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<p>Yes, thanks, that does help. Our h.s. has a mixed record getting the very top student into any Ivy. It seems to be hardest for white males - and they do have competitive scores, but not outstanding athletics and just the usual ecs. Girls, with top scores and top rank, seem to do better - especially if they've shown an interest in math/sciences. This just seems to be what happens at our local h.s.</p>