<p>I'm hoping that those who know the "ins" of graduate schools admissions, particularly the PhD programs can answer this question that was posted on another online community.</p>
<p>Why do PhD programs have less than 10% acceptance rate?? Is it that the majority of people are applying for the heck of it and don't know what else there is to do?</p>
<p>It's because they can only accept so many people, and lots apply.</p>
<p>Actually, not all programs have 10% acceptance rates. Only the top tier. Lower down, you can get into the 40-50% or so.</p>
<p>Just because a person is qualified for grad school does not mean they will be admitted to a particular school.</p>
<p>^And not all fields have top programs with a 10% acceptance rate. In my field (molecular/cell biology), the top programs interview about 30% of applicants and accept about 2/3 of those they interview. I mean, it's obviously not easy to get in, but 20% > 10%, at least.</p>
<p>EDIT: I would also venture a guess that some percentage of applications are untenable because applicants don't package themselves the right way. For example, if you approach a grad app like an undergrad app, emphasizing well-roundedness and extracurriculars, that's bad. Many applicants get unhelpful recommendation letters, also -- not that they're bad, it's just that they say things like "This student got an A in my class."</p>
<p>There are PhD programs in your field like UAlabama where they accept a higher %. Remember, PhD programs in your field have free tuition and nice stipends, and furthermore folks like the fact they can avoid the real world for another half dozen yrs and if they stay in academia as faculty, forever.</p>
<p>I think MIT has a high acceptance rate (~25% to 30%) in engineering. I heard their programs are pretty good. So high acceptance does not mean bad graduate programs. The UCs also have a similarly high acceptance, they look like ok schools.</p>
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"This student got an A in my class."
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<p>That would be two of mine. Talk to your professors!</p>
<p>It seems to me 10-20% is for the science or social science fields, and only at privates and a few of the top publics. For engineering once you go below MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, and Cornell(and the last two aren't always on the top 5), admit rates tend to shoot up to 30-50%.</p>
<p>30-50% is pretty high. I shoulda applied to those schools.</p>
<p>By the way I'm mostly referring to social sciences and humanities where funding is very limited.</p>
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30-50% is pretty high. I shoulda applied to those schools.
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<p>That's what US news has for the top publics other than Berkeley - GA Tech, Austin, Illinois, UCLA, Michigan. Those combine MS and PhD rates though, so it's hard to separate them.</p>
<p>From a science viewpoint, I kind of favor the idea where admission acceptances are kept to a minimum. In this way, only top students are admitted to the top programs and this keeps the quality of future academic leaders/researchers/professors high. Also, in academia, schools are training more Ph.D. members than there are job positions out there right now.</p>
<p>Going off topic a bit, it bothers me when pre-medical students start applying to graduate programs as a "back-up" when they actually have little interest in research!</p>
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By the way I'm mostly referring to social sciences and humanities where funding is very limited.
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<p>And you've partially answered your own question there, too. There is far less funding for humanities students, so fewer are admitted at schools that fund 100% of their students (a growing number of programs do this).</p>
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Is it that the majority of people are applying for the heck of it and don't know what else there is to do?
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<p>Yeah, for certain disciplines, I think what you just said is part of the answer. Let's face it. Some majors don't exactly offer a lot of job possibilities, and the ones that exist don't really pay that well. I was talking to one PhD student who confessed that she was actually getting paid more as a student than she probably would have gotten if she had gotten a job. That is, her doctoral stipend and the scholarships she was able to win (of which she has a few) pay her more money than a typical entry-level job would probably pay her. She also enjoys a far more enjoyable lifestyle, i.e. free use of the (lavish) university gym, full health care coverage as part of the university system, and perhaps the biggest perk of all: excellent time flexibility/autonomy. For example, if she needs to take several hours out of the day to run an errand, she is free to do so without having to ask for anybody's permission. If she wants to take an entire weekday off (and then make up for it on the weekend), she is free to do it. Very few companies will allow you this sort of flexibility. </p>
<p>It is for these reasons that people in certain disciplines justifiably view the PhD student lifestyle as quite desirable, relative to the alternatives. That henceforth drives the admissions percentages down.</p>
<p>Another reason might be the much larger number of international students applying to American universities for graduate school, compared to undergraduate. Top grad programs, especially in science and engineering, can choose the best applicants in the world, and if those students come with funding so much the better from a department's point of view.</p>
<p>sakky,</p>
<p>Something tells me that the VAST majority of people don't apply for the reasons that you've listed. I mean, you can list all the anecdotes you want, but for most people who are qualified enough to get into top PhD programs, the opportunity cost is pretty high.</p>
<p>I can attest to UCLAri statements. Opportunity cost is very high for PhD programs (especially for engineering students who could be potentially making a lot more in industry). The average stipend for PhD is roughly 20-30k minus tuition costs, which is ok, but if you are from anywhere on the west coast, you will be feeling borderline poverty. Even for entry-level chemsitry graduates, the average national income is probably in the mid 30ks. Sakky, please don't understate doctoral programs as just fun and games. The sacrifice is pretty deep and the majority of those geeks are here not just for picnics.</p>
<p>Some of the things stated sounds pretty ridiculous. There is a difference between "having" a university gym and going to the gym (the gym cost is actually added to your tuition fees for most schools if you look carefully). And although your own independent research may be more flexible, you still have deadlines to meet, experiments/simulations to run, papers to publish, and presentations to give as well as coursework and qualification exams. From what I see in my own engineering department, I can see that most graduate students put more time into their work than most full-time employees in industry. Weekends and holidays are appreciated because they give time for catching up on work. There are no "after hours" in graduate school. You work until your project is done.</p>
<p>Haha..as far as university healthcare.... I don't even know where to begin... </p>
<p>Anyways, acceptance is low because, universities select those who they think can complete innovative research under such rigors.</p>
<p>^ oh 24/7 job, here I come... but I'm not going to say or think about this until I get one official letter of acceptance! :) Maybe this whole experience will make my parents realize how good they have it to be working 9-6, 5 days a week, and very little work to bring home! </p>
<p>Also, this and talking with one of my professors about this question made me think about how applying for PhD programs is a lot like applying to vet schools. In fact one of my other professors actually used the vet school analogy: these programs are so competitive and there are too many PhDs on the job market and not enough jobs and so these people have to apply again and again just to get in like those on the DVM track. I can relate that one as I used to want to be a vet.</p>
<p>Thanks all for the thoughts and responses!</p>
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Something tells me that the VAST majority of people don't apply for the reasons that you've listed. I mean, you can list all the anecdotes you want, but for most people who are qualified enough to get into top PhD programs, the opportunity cost is pretty high.
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<p>Oh, I don't know about that. See below.</p>
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I can attest to UCLAri statements. Opportunity cost is very high for PhD programs (especially for engineering students who could be potentially making a lot more in industry). The average stipend for PhD is roughly 20-30k minus tuition costs, which is ok, but if you are from anywhere on the west coast, you will be feeling borderline poverty. Even for entry-level chemsitry graduates, the average national income is probably in the mid 30ks
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<p>See, these by themselves are anecdotes. Chemistry and engineering? Why not instead talk about the vast majority of the humanities and social science majors? How much do they make to start? How about biology majors? What do they make? </p>
<p>You want to talk about the West Coast? Well, let me tell you this. My brother was a Phd student at Stanford. He lived a quite nice life. Campus housing for Stanford grad students is heavily subsidized, such that he got his own room on campus in a townhouse for a relatively cheap price (relative to costs in the Bay Area). </p>
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Haha..as far as university healthcare.... I don't even know where to begin...
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<p>Haha, as far as corporate health care is concerned, I *really*don't know where to begin. At least you have health care as a student, and it is almost always going to be better than what you would get if you went to industry.</p>
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The sacrifice is pretty deep and the majority of those geeks are here not just for picnics.
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And although your own independent research may be more flexible, you still have deadlines to meet, experiments/simulations to run, papers to publish, and presentations to give as well as coursework and qualification exams. From what I see in my own engineering department, I can see that most graduate students put more time into their work than most full-time employees in industry. Weekends and holidays are appreciated because they give time for catching up on work. There are no "after hours" in graduate school. You work until your project is done.
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<p>But there is a huge difference. You are working on a project that you actually like, or at least you're supposed to be (and if you're not, you should be looking to change your project to something that you like). You are working on a topic that is interesting to you. When you have that situation, you can work for 100 hours a week and still think it's great because it doesn't feel like work, because you like it. Contrast that with what happens in the private sector where you are far less likely to be working on something you actually like and will often times, in fact, probably most of the time, be working on things that you don't actually like. Especially if you're entry-level. Working on something you don't like for 40 hours a week is far more painful than working 80 hours a week on something that you love. </p>
<p>Look, nobody is saying that grad school is all strawberries and cream. I agree that writing the dissertation itself can be painful. But the grad school lifestyle is still quite pleasant compared to actually taking a regular job. </p>
<p>But don't take my word for it. Here's what Paul Graham had to say about it. He isn't much of a proponent of grad school despite holding a PhD from Harvard. Nevertheless, he stated the following regarding dissertation writing and the grad school lifestyle:</p>
<p>"...thousands before you have suffered through writing a dissertation. And aside from that, grad school is close to paradise. Many people remember it as the happiest time of their lives. And nearly all the rest, including me, remember it as a period that would have been, if they hadn't had to write a dissertation."</p>
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